OMG Fireball, Noooooooooooo!

[Banshee16]

Yes, like the scry spells that can potentially ruin high level play--without powerful magic to counteract it. Not that i like high level play that much...maybe 4e will change that.

There were some cool spells in 2nd Ed. in the College of Wizards supplement, that did exactly that. One was almost like a Scrying Ward or something. If someone scries on you while you're warded, they must save, or take Xd6 damage. It was pretty effective. Sort of like in A Darkness at Sethanon or Silverthorn, when the characters tried to scry Murmandamus, and it almost killed the priest casting the scrying spell.

Banshee

 

[FireLance]

I've been thinking...what if the XPH, with spell points, and more importantly, the idea of scaling powers or whatever, was a test for how magic would eventually work in 4E?

I am hoping for some scaling of spells in 4e, mostly to remove "redundant" spells that are basically the same spell with a higher numerical effect (cure X wounds, in particular). However, since I prefer the idea of generic spell slots to a table of which level caster gets spell slots of which level, I hope the effects scale by caster level instead of spell level.

 

[meleeguy]

One of the examples of being a controller was dropping a fireball at the right place.

An odd use of the terms on their part, but thanks for filling me in. I don't get it though, fireball is ranged AoE, not controller as currently known. Therefore, it must become minor damage plus some kind of controller effect associated with it.

 

[Szatany]

An odd use of the terms on their part, but thanks for filling me in. I don't get it though, fireball is ranged AoE, not controller as currently known. Therefore, it must become minor damage plus some kind of controller effect associated with it.

Yes it is, it makes enemies scatter

 

[Nebulous]

I like it. I like it a lot. You wanna throw a charm monster? Make certain you have a big enough spell "pool" to affect the monster. If you guess wrong, well... you guessed wrong, and the monster will easily save. Same with any damage spell; throw a 3rd-level sized mana pool "droplet" to throw 3d6, or dump a few extra to pump up the damage. Maybe even overpower a spell at the cost of ability damage/drain. Fully flexible magic. That's what magic needs to be.

Yes, yes, yes, i've been clamoring for this kind of magic system in D&D for years. Arcana Evolved went a long way towards doing this, with Heightened and Diminished spells, spell templates, laden spells, etc. I think this is an excellent time for 4e to refine Monte's system even further, because as much as i liked AE, you STILL had the frequent cases where your party mage burns through his full repertoire of magic in 10 minutes, and the whole party has to rest for the night. That so needs to be fixed, it was and is a very annoying problem.

 

[Exen Trik]

Fireball is now 1d12/2 levels

But seriously, I've been wondering how all this ties into this quote:
"Power level corresponds to the character level at which you gain the power."

Does that mean if I choose fireball as soon as possible it will be weaker than if I got lightning bolt instead, and waited a level or two for fireball? Seems like it would just complicate things.

 

[jasin]

But seriously, I've been wondering how all this ties into this quote:
"Power level corresponds to the character level at which you gain the power."

Does that mean if I choose fireball as soon as possible it will be weaker than if I got lightning bolt instead, and waited a level or two for fireball? Seems like it would just complicate things.

I think this all this quote means is that if you get fireball at 5th level, it will be labeled as a 5th-level power (rather than 3rd-level, like now).

You'll still probably get both lightning bolt and fireball at 5th. Or possibly lightning bolt at 5th, and fireball at 6th.

 

[Cadfan]

My hope is that combat spells work kind of like maneuvers in Tome of Battle. Level only describes when you gain access to them. Slots are held in a general pool without level distinctions, and the effects of the spells scales in many ways.

I prefer the idea of magic as an expression of the caster's arcane power, rather than a formulaic recitation of a spell which creates a specific effect with a specific strength. Think of it as the "I kill you with my mind!" school versus the "magical bullet" school. The "I kill you with my mind!" school of magic design has effects who's power is entirely dependent on the caster. The "magical bullet" school has magical effects which are dependent only on themselves, regardless of whether they're being used by an archmage or an apprentice. Think of a crossbow as an example of this style.

Right now we're balanced between the two visions. Caster level scales, but usually has a cap, and DC does not scale. This is necessary because spells have levels. If everything scaled, a level 3 fireball could be the equal of a level 6 evocation spell, which would reduce the purpose to having slots for specific spell levels in the first place.

But if there are no level specific slots, and spells are just held in common, it makes sense to open up scaling completely. So what if a fireball you learned at level 5 has grown to equal a spell you learned at level 25? It cost the same resources to cast.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I don't care if they get rid of the dice/level thing. It won't be D&D unless that fireball comes out of a pea-sized object that hurtles towards the center of the target area!

 

[Wormwood]

I don't care if they get rid of the dice/level thing. It won't be D&D unless that fireball comes out of a pea-sized object that hurtles towards the center of the target area!

That is the first "It won't be D&D unless . . . " statement I have *ever* agreed with!