On building a coherent variant combat system...

[AbeTheGnome]

For a variety of reasons, the combat system of standard D&D is unsatisfactory to me. Basically, it's just not gritty enough, and it relies too much on spells and magic items. Please don't suggest Iron Heroes to me (it has its merits, but it's not for me). I've been through several variants, both WoTC-sanctioned and not, and scrapped them all. I've come up with something that may work, but it's still in a nascent and untested stage, and I'd like some opinions on how it would affect the game.

First of all, my games are rather low magic. Specifically, I do not allow enhanced armor or weapons or magic items that increase AC or attack bonus. While I do still allow spells to this effect, I have found that restricting such items puts the PCs at a disadvantage in most encounters, especially at higher levels. Healing magic is also severely restricted. That being said...

Defense Bonus (not the one from UA)
I will grant PCs (and NPCs) a defense bonus equal to their base reflex save. This stacks with other bonuses to AC (size, dex mod, shield, armor, etc.). This will be a dodge bonus, therefore it also stacks with other forms of dodge. This represents a character's ability to better defend himself as a result of combat experience. I never understood why characters get better at attacking (BAB), but not at defending.

Critical Hits
There is no magic number for critical hits. A natural 20 will not automatically score a critical threat (though it will still automatically hit). Beating an opponent's AC by at least 20 will score a critical threat. A weapon with a critical threat range of less than 20 will score a critical threat when an attack beats an opponent's AC by whatever that number is. This rewards combat prowess while decreasing the chance that a random mook will "get lucky" with a roll and put a severe hurting on a PC.

Critical Hits, Part 2
This is the most experimental part of the combat system. I want to make critical hits truly devastating. This way, characters will always think twice about going into battle, and will most likely try to avoid it as often as possible. I'm not sure exactly how to go about this, but I have explored several options.

1) Critical hits deal Constitution damage. Most likely, the damage value of the attack would be divided by some number (2 or 5).

2) Critical hits prompt a massive damage save (15+2 for every 10 points of damage beyond the character's Con score).

3) Critical hits deal an amount of HP damage equal to their current multiplier multiplied again by some number (2 or 5). For instance, if we used 5 as the additional multiplier, the new critical multiplier for the dagger would be x10.

4) Critical hits would maim a character. A confirmed critical hit would be rolled on a hit location table where each number corresponded to a body part, and that body part would be permanently disabled. The head, torso, and abdomen regions, of course, may call for an even harsher penalty.

Death and Dying
Instead of 10 rounds, a dying character will have a number of rounds equal to her Constitution score to bleed. In effect, when a character becomes dying, she will endure one point of Con damage for each round until she is stabilized. In essence, this rewards characters with a high Constitution, and also serves to illustrate the lasting effects of such a grievous wound. Ability damage takes a long time to heal.

Healing
As I said before, healing magic is severely restricted. Healing spells function as damage conversion, turning a certain amount of lethal damage into nonlethal damage. Therefore, when a character is knocked out of a fight by enduring damage, the character stays knocked out... literally.

Action Points
I will be using the action points variant from UA. For this reason, I may be leaning towards option 2 in the critical hits variant because it gives PCs a greater chance to survive them through the use of action points, but it still costs something valuable to avoid death. It also gives the PCs a chance to severely f*** up some villains and monsters, as they probably won't have any action points.

Alright, I know this is a long post and you're tired of reading it. But if you've made it this far, you may as well offer some constructive criticism.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Defense Bonus (not the one from UA)
I will grant PCs (and NPCs) a defense bonus equal to their base reflex save. This stacks with other bonuses to AC (size, dex mod, shield, armor, etc.). This will be a dodge bonus, therefore it also stacks with other forms of dodge. This represents a character's ability to better defend himself as a result of combat experience. I never understood why characters get better at attacking (BAB), but not at defending.

Have you looked at the relative benefit the different classes would get from this yet? It would seem to penalize the classes that are usually considered most likely as front-liners. Fighters get bad ref saves, so do clerics, it mostly seems to benefit the rogue and ranger. Perhaps you should base if on a character's BAB, that way front-line combatants like fighters, clerics, and barbarians don't get hosed?

Critical Hits
There is no magic number for critical hits. A natural 20 will not automatically score a critical threat (though it will still automatically hit). Beating an opponent's AC by at least 20 will score a critical threat. A weapon with a critical threat range of less than 20 will score a critical threat when an attack beats an opponent's AC by whatever that number is. This rewards combat prowess while decreasing the chance that a random mook will "get lucky" with a roll and put a severe hurting on a PC.

The beating AC part is interesting, that's something I'm going to have to examine more closely.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

Have you looked at the relative benefit the different classes would get from this yet? It would seem to penalize the classes that are usually considered most likely as front-liners. Fighters get bad ref saves, so do clerics, it mostly seems to benefit the rogue and ranger. Perhaps you should base if on a character's BAB, that way front-line combatants like fighters, clerics, and barbarians don't get hosed?

Well, frontliners already receive AC bonuses from armor and shield proficiencies, so this would actually level the playing field, as it were. Plus, logically, I don't see a swashbuckler having a lower dodge bonus than a barbarian. It just seems that classes with good reflex saves are trained to avoid attacks, whereas fighters and the like are trained to deal them.

On another note, I see that more than thirty users have viewed this thread, but there's only one response. I guess it's just too long to read through...

 

[GrolloStoutfoam]

I think the reflex save as a dodge bonus is great and will generate the realism you're after. Easy to dodge wearing leather, not so easy in full plate. With Full plate, you're supposed to get hit but weapons fail to penetrate.

I played in a game where we messed around a lot with the combat system as we wanted something grittier as well.

At first we used, a d20 roll+BAB as a defense against an attack (d20 roll+BAB) and the higher score won (with a natural 20 was an automatic successful defense or attack, ties went to the attacker) Was cool at first but it _really_ slowed the game down and the melee fighters were just as effective as before so different method, but the same result.

In the end we just went to armor/magic/shield as being straight DR with higher DR depending on the materials the armor/shield were made out of. However nothing bypassed the DR and the game ended before we could fine tune it (completely unrelated, real life crap broke up the group). And it definitely needed fine tuning as the cleric in the mithral full plate and large magical shield could absorb 27 points/attack.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I think the reflex save as a dodge bonus is great and will generate the realism you're after. Easy to dodge wearing leather, not so easy in full plate. With Full plate, you're supposed to get hit but weapons fail to penetrate.

Should have read more closely, you're trying to level the classes that usually aren't seen as front-liners. In that case the Reflex save as dodge bonus is a good idea, should help where it's needed most. My suggestion was based on trying to boost AC for the front-liners to try to help with the impact of certain types of spells and such.

In the end we just went to armor/magic/shield as being straight DR with higher DR depending on the materials the armor/shield were made out of. However nothing bypassed the DR and the game ended before we could fine tune it (completely unrelated, real life crap broke up the group). And it definitely needed fine tuning as the cleric in the mithral full plate and large magical shield could absorb 27 points/attack.

Actually that sounds a lot like the system we worked out in my own homebrew(and probably dozens of other people did something similar). Currently I'm trying to rebuild all the house rules and tweaks into a single coherent OGL ruleset. It's an Armor as DR system, with some heavy mods. AC is added up in the normal fashion, with an added Defense Bonus equal to BAB. Shields only add to AC not DR but have been seriously buffed using the AGoT rules as a basis. DR is stacking after a fashion. it's divided into 4 categories (magic/manufactured armor/innate supernatural/natural armor) in that order. You have to penetrate or bypass each level of resistance in order(until you get to higher levels you don't usually have TOO much and by that time another tweak has radically increased the damage being done). Both natural and manufactured armor is divided between AC and DR. Divide the normal AC by 2, half is AC, the other half is DR(always round up the DR) manufactured armor gets to add half its hardness to DR natural armor with the exception of dragons doesn't.

 

[Felnar]

For a variety of reasons, the combat system of standard D&D is unsatisfactory to me. Basically, it's just not gritty enough, and it relies too much on spells and magic items. Please don't suggest Iron Heroes to me (it has its merits, but it's not for me). I've been through several variants, both WoTC-sanctioned and not, and scrapped them all. I've come up with something that may work, but it's still in a nascent and untested stage, and I'd like some opinions on how it would affect the game.

First of all, my games are rather low magic. Specifically, I do not allow enhanced armor or weapons or magic items that increase AC or attack bonus. While I do still allow spells to this effect, I have found that restricting such items puts the PCs at a disadvantage in most encounters, especially at higher levels. Healing magic is also severely restricted. That being said...

it seems that the effect of your overarching house rules (low magic campaign, gritty-er view of combat) puts the PCs at a disadvantage. Are these other changes designed to remove that disadvantage?

Defense Bonus (not the one from UA)
I will grant PCs (and NPCs) a defense bonus equal to their base reflex save. This stacks with other bonuses to AC (size, dex mod, shield, armor, etc.). This will be a dodge bonus, therefore it also stacks with other forms of dodge. This represents a character's ability to better defend himself as a result of combat experience. I never understood why characters get better at attacking (BAB), but not at defending.

In normal D&D, the benefit of heavy armor is not needing a high dex bonus to have good AC. your variant serves to give the rogue in a chain shirt the same AC as the full plate fighter before dex bonus is even added.
I agree that characters should become more skilled at defending, similar to a monk's AC bonus, perhaps at different rates. Additionally, it is possible to look at increased hitpoints as a form of increased defense.
Also, do monsters get a bonus too?

Critical Hits
There is no magic number for critical hits. A natural 20 will not automatically score a critical threat (though it will still automatically hit). Beating an opponent's AC by at least 20 will score a critical threat. A weapon with a critical threat range of less than 20 will score a critical threat when an attack beats an opponent's AC by whatever that number is. This rewards combat prowess while decreasing the chance that a random mook will "get lucky" with a roll and put a severe hurting on a PC.

what level will the PCs be by the time the first critcal hit ever occurs?

Critical Hits, Part 2
This is the most experimental part of the combat system. I want to make critical hits truly devastating. This way, characters will always think twice about going into battle, and will most likely try to avoid it as often as possible. I'm not sure exactly how to go about this, but I have explored several options.

1) Critical hits deal Constitution damage. Most likely, the damage value of the attack would be divided by some number (2 or 5).

2) Critical hits prompt a massive damage save (15+2 for every 10 points of damage beyond the character's Con score).

3) Critical hits deal an amount of HP damage equal to their current multiplier multiplied again by some number (2 or 5). For instance, if we used 5 as the additional multiplier, the new critical multiplier for the dagger would be x10.

4) Critical hits would maim a character. A confirmed critical hit would be rolled on a hit location table where each number corresponded to a body part, and that body part would be permanently disabled. The head, torso, and abdomen regions, of course, may call for an even harsher penalty.

currently, critical threats are basically a free additional attack (at least for weapons with x2 multipliers). Stat damage is an interesting way to make criticals more notable.
however you should be careful, critical hits have a much greater impact on PCs than NPCs (NPCs are designed to die, PCs are designed to last), making it easier to one-shot a PC problably isnt a good idea.

Death and Dying
Instead of 10 rounds, a dying character will have a number of rounds equal to her Constitution score to bleed. In effect, when a character becomes dying, she will endure one point of Con damage for each round until she is stabilized. In essence, this rewards characters with a high Constitution, and also serves to illustrate the lasting effects of such a grievous wound. Ability damage takes a long time to heal.

a nice gritty take on a fairly common houserule. let us know how it works out.

Healing
As I said before, healing magic is severely restricted. Healing spells function as damage conversion, turning a certain amount of lethal damage into nonlethal damage. Therefore, when a character is knocked out of a fight by enduring damage, the character stays knocked out... literally.

again, a nice gritty variant. let us know how it works out.

Action Points
I will be using the action points variant from UA. For this reason, I may be leaning towards option 2 in the critical hits variant because it gives PCs a greater chance to survive them through the use of action points, but it still costs something valuable to avoid death. It also gives the PCs a chance to severely f*** up some villains and monsters, as they probably won't have any action points.

that critical system might make action points used much less dramatically. used to make things not happen instead of making cool/cinematic things happen

 

[AbeTheGnome]

it seems that the effect of your overarching house rules (low magic campaign, gritty-er view of combat) puts the PCs at a disadvantage. Are these other changes designed to remove that disadvantage?

Yes, hopefully.

In normal D&D, the benefit of heavy armor is not needing a high dex bonus to have good AC. your variant serves to give the rogue in a chain shirt the same AC as the full plate fighter before dex bonus is even added.

That's true at higher levels. Of course, a first level fighter in full plate will have a much better AC that a first-level rogue with a good Dex. However, at higher levels, the rogue's AC will easily outshine that of the fighter's. As I said, this system is untested and I'm not sure how these things will pan out in play. Regardless, with a total lack of AC-boosting magic items, I don't think either character will ever achieve what most players would consider a "good AC."

I agree that characters should become more skilled at defending, similar to a monk's AC bonus, perhaps at different rates. Additionally, it is possible to look at increased hitpoints as a form of increased defense.

I have trouble with hit points. No one seems to have reached a consensus on what they actually represent. This view on them is especially stretching it for me. AC represents defense, so how can hit points also represent defense?

Also, do monsters get a bonus too?

Yes, every character/monster will receive the Ref dodge bonus. However, I've learned to be very careful about the encounters I throw at my characters. I've also tweaked many monsters. Specifically, I remove DR from all monsters.

what level will the PCs be by the time the first critcal hit ever occurs?

Ouch. Got me there. Scrap that one.

currently, critical threats are basically a free additional attack (at least for weapons with x2 multipliers). Stat damage is an interesting way to make criticals more notable.
however you should be careful, critical hits have a much greater impact on PCs than NPCs (NPCs are designed to die, PCs are designed to last), making it easier to one-shot a PC problably isnt a good idea.

Interesting. One of the purposes of this variant is to make the PCs think twice about entering combat because they're not invincible. But another is to recreate certain epic fantasy scenes. Like when the lone archer slew Smaug in the hobbit. One well-placed arrow could never take down a D&D dragon using the standard rules.

that critical system might make action points used much less dramatically. used to make things not happen instead of making cool/cinematic things happen

This is regrettably true. But the action point system was designed for these things as well. You can add extra dice to any roll, including saves.

These are all good points, Felnar, and helpful. Thanks.

 

[Aus_Snow]

This is a simple and fairly common workaround for Defence Bonus: Make it equal to half BAB (or perhaps full BAB, if you want to really emphasise this factor).

 

[Felnar]

That's true at higher levels. Of course, a first level fighter in full plate will have a much better AC that a first-level rogue with a good Dex. However, at higher levels, the rogue's AC will easily outshine that of the fighter's.

1st level fighter: AC 19 = 8 + 1 + 0 (10 + fullplate + maxdex + basereflex)
1st level rogue: AC 19 = 4 + 3 + 2 (10 + chainshirt + maxdex + basereflex) (note the rogue could have more than 16 dex)

6th level fighter: AC 21 = 8 + 1 + 2 (10 + fullplate + maxdex + basereflex)
6th level rogue: AC 22 = 4 + 3 + 5 (10 + chainshirt + maxdex + basereflex) (note the rogue could have more than 16 dex)

the fighter has to buy and wear the most expensive conspicuous armor with high armor check penalty in order to not even keep up in AC
so the fighter must have some other form of defense or else they wouldnt be front line fighters (rogues would, or rather, rangers would be)

AC represents defense, so how can hit points also represent defense?

because BAB grows faster than your defense bonus (just like standard D&D magic based AC bonuses never kept up with it), you start getting hit more often than you did at low levels. The reason this isnt bad is you have more hitpoints. Hit points are your defense from dying.
I'm not well versed in all the grim-n-gritty variants, but when i played shadowrun you only ever had 10 hitpoints so a single gunshot from a lvl 1* street punk could (potentially)take down a high-level* PC (* its not a level based game). Is that the feel of combat your going for? If so, maybe defense bonus should keep up with offense bonus, while hitpoints stay low.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Interesting idea of using Base Ref save bonus for defence bonus rather than basing it on BAB. A swashbuckler then, could be a fighter who has the best reflex progression rather than fortitude. And of course trade heavy armour proficiency for combat reflexes.

And what about Initiative? Why not add your base reflex bonus to your initiative roll? I would think that those classes who are trained to react faster than others would also react faster in combat beyond their natural dexterity ability.