On character wealth an d game balance

Greenfield

Adventurer
You've misunderstood the rules. That particular gold amount is the limit that a single item may cost in the settlement, ie you can't buy an item costing more than 40,000 gp in a large city, or an item worth more than 100,000 gp in a metropolis. There's another formula to determine how much cash or wealth a community has, and for small cities and above there's practically no limit to the amount of cash available. For example, a large city with a population of 20,000 has wealth totaling about 40 million gp. A metropolis of 60,000 inhabitants would have 300 million gp.

No, I intentionally misused them to illustrate a point: Wealth scale for leveled PCs starts to compare with the wealth scale of entire towns, or at least with the wealthiest people/institutions in those towns.

I had a game where the party entered a town with tens of thousands of GP in Mithral and magic. The local Dwarven leader wanted that Mithral, but there flat wasn't enough cash money available to buy it all.

He offered some cash, and letters of credit, and to entice the PCs not to leave town just yet, he provided rooms for them at the best inn in town. He then began to call in every debt, every marker, every favor he had. The town was suddenly cash-tight.

As the PCs began to spend the cash he'd given, it ended up cycling back to the Lord, who then used it to pay off more of the debt. Etc.

The wealth of a city can be great, but not necessarily in cash terms.

ort of like PCs. :)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Greenfield

Adventurer
Spellbooks are special. One of the last PCs I played recently was a wizard. The DM did a spot check (tee hee) on our wealth to see how we were compared to the tables. If I counted my spellbook I was overwealthed. If I didn't I was underwealthed. Wizards, by design, seem to be massive time and gold sinks.

Rogues are glassy. Giving them a discount on armor gets into a weird area. Why the rogue and not the ranger? Both are limited to light armor. So is the bard. What if I multiclass? If I go Fighter 4/Rogue 1 do I get the discount?

If I wanted to multiclass, which table for WBL should I look at? And if the tables are broken up by role, lets say melee, support, range and magic what table does a cleric or druid get to use?

I think any sort of adjustment to the wealth by level tables is going to open a can of worms. It is a problem, I must admit, that I am not capable of even beginning to tackle.

I wasn't thinking of giving a discount to the class. Rather, I was thinking of a discount on enchanting leather and studded leather armors. Rationalize it as having to do with the armor having been part of a living thing if you like. You'd probably have to include hide armor, though I don't knoe if you can "master work" hide, since it is by nature untanned or poorly tanned leather.

But cheaper leather armor would help Bards and Barbarians, Rangers too. The discount shouldn't be enough to obsolete Chain Shirt as the light armor of choice, of course.

Still, I recall when I last ran a Bard, and the various DMs kept including magic weapons as treasure items, things tailored to a Bard. They wanted my Bard to be more effective in melee. Waste of time, of course, since melee combat was the last place a Bard should be.

So that makes me wonder at my own idea: Is making a Rogue more survivable in heavy melee a wasted effort? That's not their role, for the most part. They snipe and sneak around the edges of the battle. They're most effective when they can double team, when their partner can distract the foe so they don't concentrate on the relatively squishy Rogue.

As I said of the Bard: "Boosting the Bar's combat ability is like turbo-charging a mo-ped. You can make it the best mo-ped in the world, but no matter what you do, it's still a mo-ped."
 

Teemu

Hero
No, I intentionally misused them to illustrate a point: Wealth scale for leveled PCs starts to compare with the wealth scale of entire towns, or at least with the wealthiest people/institutions in those towns.

Right, but you said that a large city would have about 40k to buy items -- that's not how it works. The 40k of a large city is just the limit what a single item may cost -- you could have several 40k items available in the city, but none that cost, say, 50k gp. A large city could buy a thousand 40k items from the PCs.

I mean, sure the PCs are wealthy, but their wealth is just a drop in the bucket in a large city. In a small city, even.
 
Last edited:

Greenfield

Adventurer
I also said that i was misrepresenting the rules, on purpose, for dramatic effect.

I understand the rules perfectly. I was just taking the opportunity to illustrate how PCs live in a completely separate economy from pretty much everyone else.

The spendable cash of, say a large city with a population of 20,000, would be half the GP limit from that table (40,000/2 = 20,000) times 1/10th the population (20,000/10=2,000), or 40,000,000 gp.

That represents every coin or coin equivalent in that city, and my PC isn't close to that rich.

By those same rules (DMG PP 137), the city has "only" forty million GP worth of goodies, total, for sale. The largest of those items would be the 40,000 gp one mentioned on the table 5-2 for Large City.

Over all, this means that there are items, with a price over 100k, that aren't actually available for sale in any city of any size. You'd have to go off plane, or to some truly exotic locale, to find such a thing.

On the other hand, if a PC has over a hundred K to spend, they probably already know about such exotic places. :)
 

I had a DM once that allowed us to sell magic items at book price. But the thing was, we were "selling" them to other adventurers or collectors. It almost became a barter system. "I'll give you this sword and glowing gem and you'll give me those boots. Deal?"
 

Celebrim

Legend
So, does the table need a "by class" adjustment?

No.

Does it work at all?

No.

There are several problems with it, but the biggest one is that it is effectively a 'point buy' chargen system tacked on to D&D's basic class based system, and all point buy chargen systems naturally suffer from balance issues. But, in this case, as a 'point by' chargen system, it's dealing with what is notoriously the worst balanced and most ill-thought out thing in D&D - prices and economics.

Or to put it more simply, 'wealth by character level' would only make sense as a concept if every item in the game was well priced according to it's utility. But it's not. Most of the prices are pulled out of the air by a developer that is just trying to get past a fiddly detail and never play tested at all. If you are going to really use 'wealth by character level' in a meaningful way, the first thing you have to do is make all the prices of everything in the game meaningful. If you don't, you are just deceiving yourself about any balance or value using the table adds to the game.
 

For what it's worth, in the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium, the designers talked about how they goofed with pricing certain magic items, especially relics. They also acknowledged that in most of their playing that players would always opt for a stat boosting item over an item that had a situational ability. This is what led to the change in pricing on how certain magical abilities can be combined.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
By most measures, the Magic Item Compendium is full of over powered, under priced goodies, and more than a few that are extremely situational. In other words, kinda broken.

We don't use it for that reason.
 

Obormot

Explorer
D&D economy by the book has always been a mess from a realism perspective, dating back to 1e when Gygax created one economy to punish the PC's and another economy for NPC's based on historical realism. I could write pages on what it takes to fix it.

Celebrim, I'd love to read your thoughts on this. Even a quick summary / pointer of what sorts of things you have in mind would be great!
 

Celebrim

Legend
Celebrim, I'd love to read your thoughts on this. Even a quick summary / pointer of what sorts of things you have in mind would be great!

I want to write a book, and you want "quick pointers". I'll try.

1) All actors in a world need to be using the same economy. That is, a 'days wage' for all actors in the economy ought to be similar and based on the same coin. It makes absolutely no sense for a 0th level fighter to want 3 s.p. per day, and a 1st level fighter to expect 100 g.p. per day in wages. While it doesn't at first seem to be a problem that peasants and non-skilled laborers (those with jobs that aren't immediately helpful to a dungeoneering PC) use a silver piece economy, while PC's use a gold piece economy, what you discover is that it becomes way too easy for PC's to leverage the silver piece economy to for example - buy all the unskilled labor in an area, essentially bribe all the NPCs they meet, or otherwise gain a monopoly on production. Rationalizing the situation only makes it worse. For example, if the noble NPC rivals of the PC's have the wealth to compete in that market, what that means is that all the peasants see that the PC's are munificent and charitable, while their erstwhile lords are greedy selfish hoarders of wealth that have unfairly left them in poverty. One simple fix of this that has always worked is convert all base prices of everything to silver pieces and downgrade the size of treasure. You could successfully do that even back in 1e, just by anywhere you say 'g.p.' reading 's.p.' and dividing the gold and platinum columns of the treasure types by 20. One huge advantage of that to everyone in the economy, is it no longer requires a caravan or camels or mules to carry enough gold to market to make a major purchase. I remember the first game I ever DMed, the players ended up pulling away from the dungeon with a wagon carrying 30,000+ g.p. - 1500 pounds of gold! Given the wealth = XP assumptions that was basically inevitable if the party was to be 4th level or so after delving to the bottom of a four level dungeon, but even with later game assumptions about the cost of items that's still not unlikely.

2) The baseline economy needs to be an ordinary economy not an extraordinary one. If you read the 1e player's handbook closely, it will become immediately obvious as you read the section where Gygax discusses the price list that he's not actually describing a baseline economy. Gygax was not historically illiterate. He well knew that the prices he was giving for most of the dungeoneering equipment was gamist and designed with balance in mind, not historical accuracy. But his simulationist inclinations lead him to seek an in game justification for his game rules, and what he hit upon was that the game was taking place in a setting equivalent to the Klondike gold rush. Lots and lots of gold was being hauled out of these ancient dungeons by intrepid adventurers, and everyone was rushing to get in on the chance of wealth. As a result, the cost of adventuring goods was experiencing hyper-inflation, as demand outstripped supply. People would still pay the prices, because delving in the dungeons was so potentially lucrative, but these were not normal prices for swords and torches and what not. Unfortunately, that critical fact was seldom acted on (even by Gygax), and even if it was, it answered nothing. I don't know how many published modules I read that said, "Prices in town are double/triple of those in the Player's Handbook, owing to the scarcity." Double or triple the prices in the Klondike during the gold rush? Really? More to the point, if these prices were not realistic prices in long settled lands without hyperinflation, what were realistic prices? And if there is so much money to be made selling this hyper-inflated goods to fools, why don't the PC's try their hand at that rather than going into dungeons? Surprisingly, through all the editions, Gygax's price list has never really been challenged. It's been tweaked a bit, but the core ideas still influence prices in modern editions. And really, that probably extends to a wide range of RPGs that are influenced by D&D. What we really want is a transportable economy, that we can tweak to fit a setting no matter what the GM's assumptions about the wealth of the setting happen to be.

3) Two thirds of the cost of everything is labor. If someone crafts something, the added value should be proportional to their wages/salary. Conversely, you ought to be able to take a price and work back to the salary. If an item is the product of skilled labor, and costs 15 'days wages', then you ought to be able to work back and say something like, "The raw materials cost about 5 days wages, and a skilled laborer spent 2-3 days working the raw materials." If the item is the product of unskilled labor, you ought to be able to work back and say something like, "The raw materials cost about 5 days wages, and a skilled laborer spent 5-10 days doing the work." The raw materials in turn are probably the product of some unskilled labor doing 1 day of work, and a skilled laborer spending a day finishing the work, and some amount of cost transporting the good to you. If those estimates don't make sense, it's likely that the prices don't make sense either. As a practical matter though, working the whole economy from those first principles is going to be hard. It's just a useful check, and actually, it's more likely you have a solid understanding of the final cost than you do the process used to produce it. So its more likely you'll be able to use it to answer questions like, "How long does it take to make a sword?" or "How long does it take to make a wardrobe?" You may not know, and if you can't immediately find a good answer, working back does a fairly good job. Ideally, the crafting system generates this working the other direction, so that a player with X skill in making stuff can produce value added goods of the right prices.

4) Luxury goods are a partial exception. If you make a wardrobe out of cheap wood, it takes about the same time as a wardrobe made of rare and expensive wood. You can add some additional cost based on the risk of ruining the rare material and the fact that someone who only serves the luxury market has less consistent revenue (fewer customers) and so has to make more profit on a few sales, and there might be more adornment (art for arts sake) but the more valuable the luxury good the more and more of the cost is in the premium placed on the raw materials.

5) Historical prices are hard to find, but historical costs of labor are relatively stable over time. This is probably the most powerful technique I've ever discovered. Manufacturing and industrialization have made certain types of goods much cheaper (in terms of days wages) than they ever were before because they don't take as much labor to make, but the cost of hand made goods is actually reasonably stable over time. If you price a hand tailored set of clothes or a hand made piece of furniture or a hand made piece of fight quality armor or even a house, you're going to end up with a price that is reasonably close to the historical price of the same or equivalent good. The distorting factors like the reduced cost of raw materials owing to industrialization is going to be no worse than the error introduced by being unable to correct for local factors or inflation when inspecting historical bills of sale. This gives you an incredibly powerful tool for correcting and sanity checking price lists, because it gives you a conversion rate between historical and fantasy prices, and modern prices. You can actually reasonably make a translation like, "$50 = 1 s.p." or "$1000 = 1 g.p.", provided you aren't using primarily machine made goods as inputs. I didn't really have access to the full power of this technique until selling things on the internet became ubiquitous, but the very first example that pointed me in this direction was gems and jewelry. It was obvious even to my 10 year old mind that Gygax's gems and jewelry were gamist artefacts intended to be transportable XP for high level characters and not realistically priced goods. For example, one of the cheapest pieces of jewelry you could find was worth 200 g.p. But that is in fact 4000 days wages. If you plug that in to any of the sanity checks I've described, you'll get nonsense. If you use the price stability sanity check, that means that you'd expect silver jewelry on Etsy to be on the scale of $200,000 for each piece. If you run the two thirds of anything is labor sanity check, that means that the raw material for the jewelry was about 60 pounds of raw silver and that a skilled laborer spent a year and a half working the silver. I don't know about you, but a 60 pound ring or bracelet sounds insane. And in terms of everyone being on the same economy, this means that even the simplest piece of silver jewelry is well beyond the peasant's means, even though historically women prized jewelry because it was portable wealth that they could own even in an economy where they weren't allowed equal access to property ownership. So we know historically, even the poorest peasant women tried to develop a 'retirement fund' of simple jewelry they could pawn off in an emergency. Using a sanity check, simple silver jewelry ought to often be worth no more than a day or two's wages - which agrees with prices on etsy and historical prices. Even gems or jewelry that we consider quite valuable, $3000 or $30000 dollars, is only worth a handful of gold pieces or a few score of days wages. However using the historical prices are stable, we can also work from the modern costs of rare and expensive jewelry to what the crown jewels are actually worth, if we ever want to fill a chest with the royal handiwork of some lost dwarven kingdom.

6) As much as possible, the game shouldn't assume the wealth of the setting or the characters in it. An ideal discussion of economics in the game should be able to 'good enough' cover everything from a D&D game set in the stone age, to a D&D game set in the early modern era just before steam power and industrialization really starts to make the economy alien to someone a few centuries before. Heck, even that could be overcome if the era when a good becomes industrialized is flagged, but that's probably more detail than any system has ever attempted (and as a practical matter, may ever need).

7) As much as possible, the game shouldn't assume what game is being played at the table. Where this shows up most powerfully in D&D is the level Gygax assigned to spells, and the cost he assigned to magical items. Gygax assumed that the core of the game was PC's delving in dungeons, and he made his costs and accessibility of goods based around the question, "What's useful to PC's in a dungeon?" And that's fine as long as your game stays in the dungeon and has minimal interaction with the world outside of the dungeon/haven system he assumes, but even in the 1e DMG, it's obvious that Gygax's simplified world doesn't reflect how the campaign and the player's interests are going to evolve. Gygax even recognizes and encourages it, but he never really corrects his gamist pricing assumptions to reflect the changed game he's playing. So, the cost of his lairs perhaps at a stretch reflects the cost of building a PC's prestige stronghold in a wilderness area with little skilled labor and no preexisting infrastructure, but tells us little to nothing directly about the cost of peasant housing or building that infrastructure. This has all sorts of subtle impacts. For example, Gygax prices a 'mount' spell - get a really great horse for a day - in terms of its utility to the player. Having a horse is a nice perk for an adventurer, but not that game altering in terms of a game built around delving into dungeons. But the spell is game altering in its economic impact. If a really good horse costs 60 days wages, and requires 2 days wages per day in upkeep costs, then the value of a mount spell to the game world is incredible. It's pretty obvious that society would quickly try to capitalize on this value, by having messenger, courier, or taxi services offering this incredibly valuable service for the very low cost of a 1st level spell. Any 1st level wizard now has immediate employability and huge return on investment. The medievals developed the university system to produce high quality civil servants, how much more so would governments try to develop and capitalize on spell users! This is cultural and game changing, and you can't ignore it, because as soon as the PC's themselves get in a position to capitalize on that economic returns, you can bet they'll set up their personal kingdoms to do so. So if you don't want a world overrun with Magical Pony Express, you have to adjust the costs of the spell to make sure it doesn't outcompete ordinary horses and change the trappings of your world. Consider then the implications of something like a Lyre of Building in terms of its return on investment!

Personally, I'd pay $69.95 for a book that actually did this right. I might pay even more if it had a really good abstract system for running dynastic play at different levels of granularity - ei, how much income does a PC get from the properties he owns. Pathfinder's Complete Campaign had some pretty cool rules along those lines, and I've seen bits and pieces here and there that were really cool, but I've never seen a designer really put all of this together.
 

Remove ads

Top