On going effects and saving throw clarification

[Taren Nighteyes]

My group had a discussion and disagreement on when saving throws were allowed for on going effects.

Example 1: Bad guy steps into a Wall of Thorns, takes the immediate damage as described and at the end of the turn, I allow him to make a saving throw against the on going effect that he has gained by stepping into the Wall of Thorns. The players argue that since the bad guy hasn't taken any damage from the on going effect (which won't happen until the beginning of his next turn), he can't save against the effect. I rule that he gains the on going effect immediately, but just doesn't take damage until next round and therefor can roll a saving throw at the end of his turn as the rules state.

Example 2: Bad guy gets hit by either an immediate interrupt or attack of opportunity during the bad guy's turn. Damage is dealt and there is an on going effect (let's say fire or acid damage). I allow a saving throw to remove the on going effect at the end of the bad guy's turn despite not getting any damage from the on going effect (just as in example 1 above)

Anyone have any help they can offer me? If there is an official ruling/understanding of this, then I'd like to put this disagreement to bed!

Thanks,

Taren Nighteyes

 

[ForbidenMaster]

You gain the condition when an event gives you the condition. Once you have a condition you may save against the condition whenever you are able to make a save (using a power, at the end of a turn, an ally gives you a save etc.). There is nothing to suggest that you do not gain a condition until you experience the first instance of it, and the rules do plainly say when you gain the condition (under the Hit:, Miss:, Effect:, etc. entries).

 

[MrBeens]

Making a save before you have taken the effect is exaclty how it is meant to work.
This is why abilities that give saving throws to other characters or Wardens font of life ability are really good.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Agreed with above. Bad guy gets the save at the end of his turn as he normally would. Just because it's convenient this time doesn't mean it will always be convenient. The lesson learned is that rider effects (save ends) on the victim's turn aren't as useful (but the bad guy could still fail the first save of course).

 

[beldar1215]

IIRC, I posted this same question on the WOTC boards and was told that the on-going damage will always be taken at least once. You save at the end of the turn after you take the on-going damage. I searched for the post, but I could not find it.

If I'm wrong on this, it will make my players very happy.

Beldar

 

[Taren Nighteyes]

Thanks to everyone for comments/opinions.

beldar - was it an official wizards response, or just some random guy?

Thanks!

Taren Nighteyes

 

[sfedi]

Even if it's not official, it's a good houserule. It keeps numbers in check.

 

[beldar1215]

Thanks to everyone for comments/opinions.

beldar - was it an official wizards response, or just some random guy?

Thanks!

Taren Nighteyes

I don't think it was official.

Beldar

 

[Taren Nighteyes]

Yeah - I definitely plan to keep doing it this way, but I try to stay away from house rules as much as possible so I don't anger the rules lawyer god

Maybe I should submit my question for 'official' response!

Thanks again,

Taren Nighteyes

 

[Stalker0]

The OP is spot on in his ruling.


There are a few powers out there that specifically mention you don't get to make a save until you take the effect at least once. However, those are exceptions, not the rule.