On Indigenous Peoples Day Coyote & Crow pdf will be pay what you want

[mamba]

This...



Seems different from the above

it isn’t different however

I don't think it is the same.

and that is where you are wrong

Telling people they aren't allowed to play player characters from a real world group is like saying you can't play a white character, an Italian character, an asian character, a Jewish character, etc.

unless you are part of that group, because chances are you are going to play a racist caricature, whether you realize it or not

If you play that with your white friends, you probably get away with it, if you play this with members of said group, you have a good chance of offending them

Part of the whole point of art like movies, books and in particular games, is to put ourselves in the shoes of people who we are not and imagine what it is like to be them.

I’d say stick to fantasy, you have a very low probability of getting this right otherwise (you still do not get it right then, but at least elves cannot be offended)

This cuts off an entire area of that. You are effectively segregating people along racial lines in the imaginary world.

no, they are encouraged to play together, this is not segregation

Now if he had just said to be respectful please when you do that, or offer some advice on that matter, I think it would be totally different (and we could have a conversation about how much guidance and what guidance would be appropriate). But this is like telling someone they aren't allowed to play the blues because of their skin tone. It is wrong in so many ways. I get there is a new way of looking at race that doesn't see it as wrong, and sees it as advancement. But I still think that is a deeply flawed perspective that leads to more resentment, less empathy, less cultural exchange and more conflict.

hard disagree, you can learn from other cultures and be emphatic without having to pretend you are one of them, you just need an open mind instead of wanting to live out your stereotypes

 

[MGibster]

unless you are part of that group, because chances are you are going to play a racist caricature, whether you realize it or not

Then non-Native Americans better stay away from the game altogether. Because no matter what they're going to play a racist caricature even if they're not playing a specific tribe that exists in real life.

hard disagree, you can learn from other cultures and be emphatic without having to pretend you are one of them, you just need an open mind instead of wanting to live out your stereotypes

What business does anyone have pretending to be someone they're not in a role playing game?

 

[Bedrockgames]

unless you are part of that group, because chances are you are going to play a racist caricature, whether you realize it or not

I don't think this is true at all. And I think it is important for people to try to imagine what it is like to be other people. Whether that is in RPGs, or in novels or movies. I don't want a screenwriter to only write characters of their own race and background (certainly they are going to be able to bring that to certain characters but they need to expand their horizons and try to imagine other peoples experiences). I would also say here there is a difference between someone trying to imagine that experience, and not getting it quite right because of their background and someone indulging in a racist caricature.

If you play that with your white friends, you probably get away with it, if you play this with members of said group, you have a good chance of offending them

I think this post shows the kinds of assumptions a lot of people make about this topic that simplify things greatly and miss a lot of what is actually going on in peoples groups

I’d say stick to fantasy, you have a very low probability of getting this right otherwise.

It isn't a test. I may not be able to imagine what it is like to be a plumber with 100% accuracy but I can certainly try

no, they are encouraged to play together, this is not segregation

I didn't say they were physically segregated. I said they were being segregated in the imagined world, and that is definitely what is being advocated here. It is saying some people can play X and some people cannot

hard disagree, you can learn from other cultures and be emphatic without having to pretend you are one of them, you just need an open mind instead of wanting to live out your stereotypes

Again I think you are making a lot of assumptions here. We aren't talking about pretending to be from a culture you are not (though I personally wouldn't place limits on people being able to adopt a new culture if they move somewhere----here in the US people come here from all over and assume the identity of being an American---in fact that is what my ancestors did). We are talking about playing a character who is of a different background than you are. Wanting to do that, isn't the same as wanting to live out your stereotypes.

 

[mamba]

Then non-Native Americans better stay away from the game altogether. Because no matter what they're going to play a racist caricature even if they're not playing a specific tribe that exists in real life.

that is why they offered a fictional setting with fictional tribes to play

What business does anyone have pretending to be someone they're not in a role playing game?

you still pretend to be someone, just not a Sioux or whatever

 

[MGibster]

that is why they offered a fictional setting with fictional tribes to play

But how is that going to make any portrayal less likely to be a racist caricature?

you still pretend to be someone, just not a Sioux or whatever

But in another game, say one set in the 20th century on planet Earth, it would be acceptable to play a character who was a Sioux?

 

[mamba]

I don't think this is true at all.

I’d say there either is a 98% chance, or you play it so superficially that I am not sure why you even bother instead of going with the options the game offers you

And I think it is important for people to try to imagine what it is like to be other people.

feel free to imagine it, but refrain from trying to act it out

I would also say here there is a difference between someone trying to imagine that experience, and not getting it quite right because of their background and someone indulging in a racist caricature.

probably not as much as you assume there is

It isn't a test. I may not be able to imagine what it is like to be a plumber with 100% accuracy but I can certainly try

plumber is not an ethnicity, unless that is your Italian stereotype

I didn't say they were physically segregated. I said they were being segregated in the imagined world, and that is definitely what is being advocated here.

no, they still play together, the opposite of segregation

 

[mamba]

But how is that going to make any portrayal less likely to be a racist caricature?

it’s a fictional tribe with whatever features the book says they have, so by definition that is not a caricature of a real tribe

But in another game, say one set in the 20th century on planet Earth, it would be acceptable to play a character who was a Sioux?

no, but whoever wrote that other game might not have told you that in the book

 

[Emberashh]

If this were Africa based instead of Native American that would be the same as saying ‘no blackface’…

Ive been avoiding going there but I had the exact same thought.

Thank you for your service falling on that sword

 

[MGibster]

You know what? This was a happy little thread to tell people about the availability of a game. I think I'm just going to bow out. I hope y'all who purchased the game enjoy it.

 

[Emberashh]

it’s a fictional tribe with whatever features the book says they have, so by definition that is not a caricature of a real tribe

And if it were an issue where those fictional tribes were actually being disrespectful to real ones, then more likely this discussion becomes more directly about that problem, rather than a distractione conjured out of thin air.

Connor et al may be a lot of things, but I don't think this is something you can levy at them as being the case.

Ive since read through the game myself and nothing stands out to me in that regard, at least as far as what I know of. I won't claim to be an expert, but legally speaking I am Cherokee and once upon a time I took great interest in that quirk in my identities.

If its passing my sniff test and thus far hasn't come under fire from any other Indigenous folk, then I can't imagine this to be the case.