If the roleplaying game industry has anything akin to a "rock star", Monte Cook would be it. Game designer, author, and soon-to-be star of a web series, Monte has been writing and publishing gaming material for nearly thirty years. Even if you're one of the few who don't recognise his name immediately, you're sure to be familiar with some of his work - words like D&D, Planescape, Rolemaster, and Champions; companies like Wizards of the Coast and Iron Crown Enterprises; and, more recently Malhavoc Press and his brand new Monte Cook Games. He's also won a crapload of ENnies awards over the years. Monte recently launched a Kickstarter project for his new RPG, Numenera - a Kickstarter which achieved over half a million dollars, by the way, and received widespread publicity - and is working on a web TV series called Geek Seekers with his colleague, Jen Page.
A busy man with his fingers in a number of - ahem - pies, Monte was kind enough to spare some time to talk to me about Numenera, Kickstarters, the RPG industry, his own personal interests, and more. So, without further ado, here is our conversation:
MORRUS: Congratulations on your extra-ordinary Kickstarter campaign for Numenera. You aimed initially for $20,000, and ended up with over half-a-million. You certainly put a lot of effort into managing that campaign; how surprised were you - putting modesty aside - by its success? Speaking for myself, I expected you - just on hearing that the campaign existed - to get far, far in excess of your $20K goal, but $500K was far more than I imagined!
MONTE: Thanks! I was far more than I imagined as well. I intentionally set the goal very low, but I never thought it would get as high as it did. I think it's a testament to how many people out there are still interested in tabletop games and trying something new.
What was the inspiration and motivation behind Numenera? Had it been percolating for some time? Presumably, had you stayed at WotC, you wouldn't be writing Numenera now - but was it always part of the game plan?
In many ways, some of the ideas for the game, both mechanical and setting, are twenty years old. So it's been percolating a long time.
Basically, Numenera is a game that's been on my plate a few times, once right before I got hired at TSR, and once right before my most recent stint with WotC, and each time it got shelved while I worked on other things.
The inspirations are many: Vance's Dying Earth, Moorcock's Hawkmoon, Stapledon's Last and First Men, Moebius' work, and so on, but the biggest is Wolfe's Book of the New Sun.
Why a completely new game system for Numenera, rather than create a campaign setting to leverage your existing published work - Arcana Unearthed and the like?
Because that system doesn't cater to the playstyle I am aiming for. I want to create something much more rules-light and story-and-GM-driven. To be clear, I am not saying anything by that other than, "I like a lot of different kind of games, with a lot of different playstyles, and I think people should get to play what they want." Just because I order chocolate ice cream today does not mean I've decided I hate vanilla forevermore.
In a similar vein - why a new company? What is the difference between Malhavoc Press and Monte Cook Games? Will Malhavoc be publishing any new materials?
Malhavoc Press is a d20 Design Studio. People expect Malhavoc stuff to be compatible with 3E. That's not Numenera. It's a dramatic way for me to make it clear "this is different." Malhavoc still exists, and it's quite possible that I publish something new using that label as well.
Robin Laws says the first steps of designing a new game are figuring out "Core Activity" (like in D&D, killing monsters in underground ruins to get treasure) and the "Design Throughline" (like Gumshoe streamlines investigative play, so that the solution to mysteries depends not on finding clues but putting them together). What would you say the core activity and design throughline of Numenera are?
For the sake of this answer, I'll accept those assumptions. The core activity is "exploring the ruins of the past to find tools to help build a future." The throughline, I suppose, would be enhancing story-driven rather than tactical-driven play. So mechanics on both the player and the GM sides of things cater to making play fit into the story.
Secrets of the Delvers Guild was great; any chance of more Ptolus material? What would it take to get a Jewels of Parnaith module written? What about something akin to the iOS Midgard Atlas for Ptolus or Diamond Throne?
Thanks. Ptolus was always meant to be a stand-alone product. A whole product line in a book, so to speak. So no, I don't have any desire to create more material for Ptolus. There's enough in that book to run through three campaigns (I know, I did it.)
You've been a proponent of crowdfunding for a while, and recently used it to great success. You were also known as being one of the pioneers of PDF publishing a decade ago. It's clear that you're an enthusiast and early adopter of new technologies and methodologies - where would you like to see the RPG industry in ten years' time?
What would I *like?* I'd like game fans everywhere to quit finding reasons to fight with each other. I'd like gamer A to not tell gamer B that he plays rpgs the wrong way, or that his game is terrible just because it's different from his own, or that his game's not a "real" rpg. I'd like issues that shouldn't divide us to stop dividing us. We don't have to like every gamer, we certainly don't have to want to play with every gamer at our table, but we ought to at least respect every gamer's choices and preferences.
I'd also like us to reach a point where it's viable for a 5-6 small companies (2-6 people) to publish rpgs full time, utilizing new technologies (Kickstarter, ebooks, direct sales, etc.) as well as traditional models (distributors and stores), where stores are about acquisition and sustaining large markets and ebooks, direct sales and crowdfunding are about reaching the customers that otherwise wouldn't be reached or served.
But then again, I am a fantasy writer.
Frankly, 10 years out is probably too far to even speculate. I will say this: on some level, the personal interaction required for a tabletop RPG to function must remain or it will lose its identity. One of the things that Numenera does, for example, is requires more player to player interaction and player to GM interaction as a part of game play. I think that's vital to the hobby. If you want to interact with something (the rules, a computer) alone, there are better hobbies for you.
That question dealt with where you'd like to see the industry headed; but that's not necessarily the same as the direction it actually is headed in, or will be. Do you think the traditional publishing model, particularly for RPGs, will remain viable into the future? Is Kickstarter a sustainable patronage model or will it become a flash-in-the-pan? Will gadgets and technology feature more?
I think we'll see new tools open up to make things easier--better online platforms to play in a video chat, for example. I think in 10 years most people will have all their rules on tablet-style devices to read and reference easily. This is all stuff that's taking root now, and will be the default in 10 years. Less, probably.
As for the "industry?" We're at a weird place. The big companies are seeing sales slipping. (I don't mean individual company's sales, I mean, say, the three biggest rpg companies are not selling numbers that the three biggest rpg companies were selling 10 years ago.) They're looking for new ways to promote their products, new kinds of products to promote, and new revenue streams. There essentially is no "middle tier" anymore. There's just small and super small--again, in terms of 10-15 years ago. But there might be more of them. If you told me that there were almost as many people playing tabletop rpgs today as there were 10 years ago, I might believe you. But they're playing a vastly different range of games from each other. The audience isn't just divided, it's formed armed camps that routinely launches internet assaults against one another (that's the part of the equation I hate the most).
Where do game stores and distributors fit into these equations? The small and really small are finding it harder and harder to fit into the traditional formula. But if game stores only carry the top tier, and the top tier's sales are slipping, why would distributors and stores give a rip about rpgs at all? Is the only way for a small producer to survive to use crowdfunding and direct sales? It's starting to look like it, but I hope not.
These are difficult questions. I don't think anyone has the answer yet.
(Crowdfunding's not a flash in the pan, however. It's already become too important to too many business models, both game-related and not. It's going to have some growing pains, and it needs to evolve a fair bit more, but the concept is here to stay. And thank goodness. If it isn't, Disney will be the only entertainment company left in 10 years.)
You're doing a lot more than just writing RPG books these days. You have an upcoming web series called Geek Seekers, and recently published an advice book for those interested in running a successful Kickstarter campaign. Would it be fair to say that this is all part of an intentional expansion of your core work into other areas?
Well, it's certainly intentional. But it's not really all that surprising. I think we all have a tendency to put people in boxes. Wil Wheton is an actor. Steve Martin is a comedian. What? Wil's a writer, too? Steve Martin's an art collector? It kind of seems weird when people stray from their boxes.
So I suppose it seems odd when I do anything other than design an rpg product. But just like 100% of the rest of humanity, my interests are pretty varied. I like the paranormal and comedy, so I got together with Jen Page to make Geek Seekers. I like writing non-fiction so I got together with Shanna Germain to write Kicking It: Successful Crowdfunding. I like writing fiction, so I published Small Matters just a few days ago. A few years ago I lost a lot of weight and became interested in fitness and health, so I am now a consultant on a developing game for Fitness Interactive Experience. I love movies, so I'm looking to do a short (probably animated) Numenera film of some kind.
A few years ago, I stepped away from rpgs and put a lot of this stuff (and in fact, a lot of other stuff) in motion. It's kind of just now all coming together. At the time, though, I just felt like my life was too focused on just one of my interests--sure, rpgs are my #1 interest of all of them, but I have others. Even though I'm working on Numenera, in many ways I feel like I have am still kind of "away" from rpgs (at least compared to 10-15 years ago), because I have so many other things also going on. Which is the way I like it. I'm a guy with varied interests.
So what, exactly, is Geek Seekers? And when can we expect to see it?
Geek Seekers is a web series that I am doing with Jen Page (of Dorkness Rising fame). Its about investigating the paranormal, but from a geek's point of view. That is to say, we're doing it because we're geeks and we think what we're doing is the kind of stuff that lots of geeks would have fun doing--looking for ghosts, bigfoot, UFOs, etc. It also means its full of silly humor, movie references, side discussions about games, and more.
The investigation, research, and whatnot are real, but we intersperse it with goofiness. The first two episodes will be online in November. We just premiered the first one to Kickstarter backers last night, in fact.
Are you currently engaged in a long-term game, other than your Numenera playtests?
Yes. I'm fortunate enough to still be in touch with my old group of high school friends and we all played D&D together back then. And we have rekindled that spirit and now play via Google Hangouts. Bruce Cordell (one of the group) is running a modified Tomb of Horrors. We're ostensibly playtesting the new D&D rules, but that's just because that's the rules that are in Bruce's headspace right now (for obvious reasons). By that, I mean that we're not "playtesting" as such. We're just having fun.
You're developing a core rules system for Numenera. Would you (or would it be suitable to) apply the mechanics to other settings - or even games?
Yes. In the back of my mind somewhere I have a weird fantasy setting/game planned out that would use the same system. Right now, that "system" is called the Cypher System, by the way.
How about third-party licensing? What are your feelings on things like the Open Gaming License, particularly in respect to Numenera? Would you like to see third parties providing material for your core game?
I think I've made it pretty clear over the years that I'm in favor of the OGL and things like it. When I created Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, I created a free open license to use all the material--rules and setting--for anyone to use. It's quite likely that I'll do something like that for Numenera.
I'm already in talks with various "third parties" to create Numenera content, by the way, so that's for sure going to happen.
So, you can run a game for five people - living or dead - who you do not already know; for added difficulty, these people cannot be part of the tabletop gaming industry. Who would those five people be?
Okay. Only people I don't already know. I'm going to try to go for a varied list.
Has there ever been a time when you lost interest in RPGs? Has there ever been a time when you were more interested in RPGs than you are now? What would you do if you could not work in gaming?
Lost interest? No. More interested? No. I know that seems contradictory to my answer about varied interests, but it's really not. I've always had varied interests. I'd just not been able to do much with them due to time constraints.
If I couldn't work in gaming, I'd focus on the other stuff--fiction, nonfiction, maybe more screenwriting. But if you're question is, if I couldn't work in that kind of space at all, I'd probably want to work in science, probably specifically astronomy, but perhaps neurobiology. (In a parallel universe, there's a Monte who is working as a neuroscientist working on dream and sleep research.)
Definitively and finally: what flavour is the pie?
Many people will likely remember that I later came out with a random pie generator. I have no idea where they went off to. So considering the time of year, I'll say pumpkin and call it good.
A busy man with his fingers in a number of - ahem - pies, Monte was kind enough to spare some time to talk to me about Numenera, Kickstarters, the RPG industry, his own personal interests, and more. So, without further ado, here is our conversation:
MORRUS: Congratulations on your extra-ordinary Kickstarter campaign for Numenera. You aimed initially for $20,000, and ended up with over half-a-million. You certainly put a lot of effort into managing that campaign; how surprised were you - putting modesty aside - by its success? Speaking for myself, I expected you - just on hearing that the campaign existed - to get far, far in excess of your $20K goal, but $500K was far more than I imagined!
MONTE: Thanks! I was far more than I imagined as well. I intentionally set the goal very low, but I never thought it would get as high as it did. I think it's a testament to how many people out there are still interested in tabletop games and trying something new.
What was the inspiration and motivation behind Numenera? Had it been percolating for some time? Presumably, had you stayed at WotC, you wouldn't be writing Numenera now - but was it always part of the game plan?
In many ways, some of the ideas for the game, both mechanical and setting, are twenty years old. So it's been percolating a long time.
Basically, Numenera is a game that's been on my plate a few times, once right before I got hired at TSR, and once right before my most recent stint with WotC, and each time it got shelved while I worked on other things.
The inspirations are many: Vance's Dying Earth, Moorcock's Hawkmoon, Stapledon's Last and First Men, Moebius' work, and so on, but the biggest is Wolfe's Book of the New Sun.
Why a completely new game system for Numenera, rather than create a campaign setting to leverage your existing published work - Arcana Unearthed and the like?
Because that system doesn't cater to the playstyle I am aiming for. I want to create something much more rules-light and story-and-GM-driven. To be clear, I am not saying anything by that other than, "I like a lot of different kind of games, with a lot of different playstyles, and I think people should get to play what they want." Just because I order chocolate ice cream today does not mean I've decided I hate vanilla forevermore.
In a similar vein - why a new company? What is the difference between Malhavoc Press and Monte Cook Games? Will Malhavoc be publishing any new materials?
Malhavoc Press is a d20 Design Studio. People expect Malhavoc stuff to be compatible with 3E. That's not Numenera. It's a dramatic way for me to make it clear "this is different." Malhavoc still exists, and it's quite possible that I publish something new using that label as well.
Robin Laws says the first steps of designing a new game are figuring out "Core Activity" (like in D&D, killing monsters in underground ruins to get treasure) and the "Design Throughline" (like Gumshoe streamlines investigative play, so that the solution to mysteries depends not on finding clues but putting them together). What would you say the core activity and design throughline of Numenera are?
For the sake of this answer, I'll accept those assumptions. The core activity is "exploring the ruins of the past to find tools to help build a future." The throughline, I suppose, would be enhancing story-driven rather than tactical-driven play. So mechanics on both the player and the GM sides of things cater to making play fit into the story.
Secrets of the Delvers Guild was great; any chance of more Ptolus material? What would it take to get a Jewels of Parnaith module written? What about something akin to the iOS Midgard Atlas for Ptolus or Diamond Throne?
Thanks. Ptolus was always meant to be a stand-alone product. A whole product line in a book, so to speak. So no, I don't have any desire to create more material for Ptolus. There's enough in that book to run through three campaigns (I know, I did it.)
You've been a proponent of crowdfunding for a while, and recently used it to great success. You were also known as being one of the pioneers of PDF publishing a decade ago. It's clear that you're an enthusiast and early adopter of new technologies and methodologies - where would you like to see the RPG industry in ten years' time?
What would I *like?* I'd like game fans everywhere to quit finding reasons to fight with each other. I'd like gamer A to not tell gamer B that he plays rpgs the wrong way, or that his game is terrible just because it's different from his own, or that his game's not a "real" rpg. I'd like issues that shouldn't divide us to stop dividing us. We don't have to like every gamer, we certainly don't have to want to play with every gamer at our table, but we ought to at least respect every gamer's choices and preferences.
I'd also like us to reach a point where it's viable for a 5-6 small companies (2-6 people) to publish rpgs full time, utilizing new technologies (Kickstarter, ebooks, direct sales, etc.) as well as traditional models (distributors and stores), where stores are about acquisition and sustaining large markets and ebooks, direct sales and crowdfunding are about reaching the customers that otherwise wouldn't be reached or served.
But then again, I am a fantasy writer.
Frankly, 10 years out is probably too far to even speculate. I will say this: on some level, the personal interaction required for a tabletop RPG to function must remain or it will lose its identity. One of the things that Numenera does, for example, is requires more player to player interaction and player to GM interaction as a part of game play. I think that's vital to the hobby. If you want to interact with something (the rules, a computer) alone, there are better hobbies for you.
That question dealt with where you'd like to see the industry headed; but that's not necessarily the same as the direction it actually is headed in, or will be. Do you think the traditional publishing model, particularly for RPGs, will remain viable into the future? Is Kickstarter a sustainable patronage model or will it become a flash-in-the-pan? Will gadgets and technology feature more?
I think we'll see new tools open up to make things easier--better online platforms to play in a video chat, for example. I think in 10 years most people will have all their rules on tablet-style devices to read and reference easily. This is all stuff that's taking root now, and will be the default in 10 years. Less, probably.
As for the "industry?" We're at a weird place. The big companies are seeing sales slipping. (I don't mean individual company's sales, I mean, say, the three biggest rpg companies are not selling numbers that the three biggest rpg companies were selling 10 years ago.) They're looking for new ways to promote their products, new kinds of products to promote, and new revenue streams. There essentially is no "middle tier" anymore. There's just small and super small--again, in terms of 10-15 years ago. But there might be more of them. If you told me that there were almost as many people playing tabletop rpgs today as there were 10 years ago, I might believe you. But they're playing a vastly different range of games from each other. The audience isn't just divided, it's formed armed camps that routinely launches internet assaults against one another (that's the part of the equation I hate the most).
Where do game stores and distributors fit into these equations? The small and really small are finding it harder and harder to fit into the traditional formula. But if game stores only carry the top tier, and the top tier's sales are slipping, why would distributors and stores give a rip about rpgs at all? Is the only way for a small producer to survive to use crowdfunding and direct sales? It's starting to look like it, but I hope not.
These are difficult questions. I don't think anyone has the answer yet.
(Crowdfunding's not a flash in the pan, however. It's already become too important to too many business models, both game-related and not. It's going to have some growing pains, and it needs to evolve a fair bit more, but the concept is here to stay. And thank goodness. If it isn't, Disney will be the only entertainment company left in 10 years.)
You're doing a lot more than just writing RPG books these days. You have an upcoming web series called Geek Seekers, and recently published an advice book for those interested in running a successful Kickstarter campaign. Would it be fair to say that this is all part of an intentional expansion of your core work into other areas?
Well, it's certainly intentional. But it's not really all that surprising. I think we all have a tendency to put people in boxes. Wil Wheton is an actor. Steve Martin is a comedian. What? Wil's a writer, too? Steve Martin's an art collector? It kind of seems weird when people stray from their boxes.So I suppose it seems odd when I do anything other than design an rpg product. But just like 100% of the rest of humanity, my interests are pretty varied. I like the paranormal and comedy, so I got together with Jen Page to make Geek Seekers. I like writing non-fiction so I got together with Shanna Germain to write Kicking It: Successful Crowdfunding. I like writing fiction, so I published Small Matters just a few days ago. A few years ago I lost a lot of weight and became interested in fitness and health, so I am now a consultant on a developing game for Fitness Interactive Experience. I love movies, so I'm looking to do a short (probably animated) Numenera film of some kind.
A few years ago, I stepped away from rpgs and put a lot of this stuff (and in fact, a lot of other stuff) in motion. It's kind of just now all coming together. At the time, though, I just felt like my life was too focused on just one of my interests--sure, rpgs are my #1 interest of all of them, but I have others. Even though I'm working on Numenera, in many ways I feel like I have am still kind of "away" from rpgs (at least compared to 10-15 years ago), because I have so many other things also going on. Which is the way I like it. I'm a guy with varied interests.
So what, exactly, is Geek Seekers? And when can we expect to see it?
Geek Seekers is a web series that I am doing with Jen Page (of Dorkness Rising fame). Its about investigating the paranormal, but from a geek's point of view. That is to say, we're doing it because we're geeks and we think what we're doing is the kind of stuff that lots of geeks would have fun doing--looking for ghosts, bigfoot, UFOs, etc. It also means its full of silly humor, movie references, side discussions about games, and more.
The investigation, research, and whatnot are real, but we intersperse it with goofiness. The first two episodes will be online in November. We just premiered the first one to Kickstarter backers last night, in fact.
Are you currently engaged in a long-term game, other than your Numenera playtests?
Yes. I'm fortunate enough to still be in touch with my old group of high school friends and we all played D&D together back then. And we have rekindled that spirit and now play via Google Hangouts. Bruce Cordell (one of the group) is running a modified Tomb of Horrors. We're ostensibly playtesting the new D&D rules, but that's just because that's the rules that are in Bruce's headspace right now (for obvious reasons). By that, I mean that we're not "playtesting" as such. We're just having fun.
You're developing a core rules system for Numenera. Would you (or would it be suitable to) apply the mechanics to other settings - or even games?
Yes. In the back of my mind somewhere I have a weird fantasy setting/game planned out that would use the same system. Right now, that "system" is called the Cypher System, by the way.
How about third-party licensing? What are your feelings on things like the Open Gaming License, particularly in respect to Numenera? Would you like to see third parties providing material for your core game?
I think I've made it pretty clear over the years that I'm in favor of the OGL and things like it. When I created Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, I created a free open license to use all the material--rules and setting--for anyone to use. It's quite likely that I'll do something like that for Numenera.
I'm already in talks with various "third parties" to create Numenera content, by the way, so that's for sure going to happen.
So, you can run a game for five people - living or dead - who you do not already know; for added difficulty, these people cannot be part of the tabletop gaming industry. Who would those five people be?
Okay. Only people I don't already know. I'm going to try to go for a varied list.
- Gerard Way
- Clark Ashton Smith
- Grant Morrison
- Peter Gabriel
- Nicolai Tesla
Has there ever been a time when you lost interest in RPGs? Has there ever been a time when you were more interested in RPGs than you are now? What would you do if you could not work in gaming?
Lost interest? No. More interested? No. I know that seems contradictory to my answer about varied interests, but it's really not. I've always had varied interests. I'd just not been able to do much with them due to time constraints.
If I couldn't work in gaming, I'd focus on the other stuff--fiction, nonfiction, maybe more screenwriting. But if you're question is, if I couldn't work in that kind of space at all, I'd probably want to work in science, probably specifically astronomy, but perhaps neurobiology. (In a parallel universe, there's a Monte who is working as a neuroscientist working on dream and sleep research.)
Definitively and finally: what flavour is the pie?
Many people will likely remember that I later came out with a random pie generator. I have no idea where they went off to. So considering the time of year, I'll say pumpkin and call it good.
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