On the marketing of 4E

[The Little Raven]

Not a terrible loss to the reader of Dragon but a loss to the person who doesn't subscribe who you'd WANT to know about these things.

You mean, like free previews and excerpts for products that are releasing soon?

DMG2... 7 excerpts (with one more to come).... free.
Adventurer's Vault 2... 8 excerpts... free.
Divine Power... 8 excerpts... free.
Eberron Campaign Guide... 8 excerpts... free.
Eberron Player's Guide... 8 excerpts... free.

Notice a pattern? 8 excerpts for each major product (adventures and dungeon tiles only get 1), all of which are free, and all of which together give you a good idea of what the product will have in it.

The exclusive previews you see in Dragon are for products that are months away at the earliest, and they include full racial write-ups, with feats and paragon path, or one entire build from a forthcoming class... or they're playtest articles, encouraging subscriber feedback.

So, you're saying that in addition to the 8 excerpts for a book that non-subscribers already get, they should get reams of pages of additional preview material? I disagree. I think 8 excerpts that cover the broad spectrum of material in the book is plenty... and most companies might think it's too much, since most of them don't even put out that many previews for their products.

Claiming that you couldn't find a way to do a boxed set for an adventure when numerous other companies have?

They didn't say they couldn't. They said it was cost prohibitive. And White Wolf agrees with them, as they put out a boxed set for Exalted (Dreams of the First Age) and during the development/production (which was delayed a few times), openly admitted that they learned first-hand why people don't really do boxed sets anymore: more work and cost than they are ultimately worth.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The exclusive previews you see in Dragon are for products that are months away at the earliest, and they include full racial write-ups, with feats and paragon path, or one entire build from a forthcoming class... or they're playtest articles, encouraging subscriber feedback.

This month, keep an eye out for Adventurer’s Vault 2. This is a product that every player needs, because you can never have access to enough cool and powerful items and equipment. Check out the neat group items for something new and different. Also, Monster Manual: Legendary Evils huge miniatures boosters hit the shelves this month. In addition to the visible huge figure (including a beholder ultimate tyrant and a balor), each booster contains four random figures drawn from the newest D&D products.

Next month, make sure you get your copy of Dungeon Master's Guide 2, and look for a D&D Game Day event in your area. Also in September, the Revenge of the Giants super adventure provides a great paragon-tier epic involving giants, elementals, and a waking primordial. For D&D Insiders, next month also sees the premier of the exclusive player character class -- the assassin!

So that's months and months ahead or extensive playtest material eh? Uh... no. It's not. It's a thinly, very thinly disguised ad.

They didn't say they couldn't. They said it was cost prohibitive.

Uh... what's the difference there? They couldn't BECAUSE it was cost prohibitive? That's really splitting hairs no?

And White Wolf agrees with them, as they put out a boxed set for Exalted (Dreams of the First Age) and during the development/production (which was delayed a few times), openly admitted that they learned first-hand why people don't really do boxed sets anymore: more work and cost than they are ultimately worth.

And yet, Troll Lord Games manages to do it. Green Ronin not only has done it for OGL material, but are doing it for a brand new game. Maybe WoTC needs to seek out the old Ronin boys and find out how they've done it eh?

And it gets back to the marketing aspect. Don't say you're going to do something if you can't do it. Stop talking about what you're going to be doing because when it turns out you can't do it ($1 PDF when you buy the book, various DDI aspects that still aren't there, GSL being done on time, boxed sets being cost prohibitive etc...), it just makes you look bad.

 

[The Little Raven]

So that's months and months ahead or extensive playtest material eh? Uh... no. It's not. It's a thinly, very thinly disguised ad.

Let's actually look at the content of Dragon, directly.

Dragon 379 (September)
- PHB3 Debut: Skill Powers
- Ampersand (Martial Power 2 excerpt)

Dragon 378 (August)
- PHB3 Debut: Githzerai
- Playing Githzerai
- Ampersand (Plane Below excerpt)

Dragon 377 (July)
- PHB3 Debut: Psion
- Ampersand (Draconomicon 2 excerpt)

Dragon 376 (June)
- MM3 Playtest

Dragon 375 (May)
- PHB3 Playtest: Monk
- PHB3 Playtest: Hybrid Characters

Every single one of these previews/playtests is for a book that is at least 4 months away from release at the time of the preview. That would make these previews... months ahead of release, like I said. And with the exception of the MM3 playtest, they're pretty extensive previews/playtest (extensive being the word you assigned for whatever reason, since I never used it originally).

Excerpt Archive

And here is the list of excerpts, all of which are 100% free, which begin releasing the month before a product hits shelves.

So, as I said, their Dragon-exclusive previews are longer articles with plenty of information (enough to let you play a class or a race) and are released months in advance of the book itself, and their free previews are one-page deals that give you a solid glimpse into the product's content shortly before its release.

Uh... what's the difference there? They couldn't BECAUSE it was cost prohibitive? That's really splitting hairs no?

You're claiming they said "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!" when they, in fact, did not. Hell, I don't even recall any promise that it would be a boxed set, merely that they were considering it and looking at the feasibility. But then again, this is the internet, where any off-hand comment of any kind becomes some kind of thrice-bound oath.

And yet, Troll Lord Games manages to do it.

Really? Can you point me to their 8 excerpts for each product, please, because it sure isn't on their official website under C&C Previews, where they lack previews for a number of their products.

Stop talking about what you're going to be doing because when it turns out you can't do it ($1 PDF when you buy the book, various DDI aspects that still aren't there, GSL being done on time, boxed sets being cost prohibitive etc...), it just makes you look bad.

Emphasis mine.

This is exactly what I was talking about with the internet making any statement into promises. Scott Rouse said they were exploring options, one of which was possibly paying a small amount for a PDF copy ("price of a cup of coffee"). Options being explored, not policies promised and put into place. You took a comment that was "This is something we're looking at, and it may or may not work out" and turned it into "We are doing this. PERIOD. END OF STATEMENT."

 

[DaveMage]

Aww, come on. Or are you trying to be funny? The rules did not belong to these two people, it was the company's decision to do the OGL and allow others to use the rules for free. Dancey and Adkinson pushed for it, sure. But the company (including Hasbro, maybe) did not have to go along with them. Did the company good to do it, though, since 3.x sold very well (I do not want to start a discussion if WotC have done a new OGL, this is not the thread for that).
However, if you are really unwilling to give the company any credit at all, at least include Skaff Elias.

Actually, I believe that before he sold WotC to Hasbro, Adkison did indeed own the rules.

But your point about Skaff Elias is probably a fair one.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Hell, I don't even recall any promise that it would be a boxed set, merely that they were considering it and looking at the feasibility.

Item Code 241787400
Release Date September 2009
Format Boxed Set
Page Count 160
ISBN 9780786952052
Price $39.95 ; C$45.00

Right from the product descritpion page. Is that a 'promise enough' for ya? "It doesn't have Gygax's signature from beyond the grave! It's not a promise!" Makes me laugh to see people leaping around to prove a point like that. "Well, I don't recall it and even if you're saying it's so, it's not a promise because it doesn't met this definition."

Really? Can you point me to their 8 excerpts for each product, please, because it sure isn't on their official website under C&C Previews, where they lack previews for a number of their products.

Speaking of boxed sets. Of which they've had several. Even one recently.

Ditto for Green Ronin which is launching a new RPG via the boxed set method.

 

[carmachu]

I would hate to live in a world where you are not allowed to mock things now and then.

Anyone can mock anything.

However, if your a business, and your mocking part of your customer base while rolling out a new product? That is not so ok.

Its funny, people defending WotC ask "what was it that turned your off or that upset you or such".

Then, when folks tell in plain words what it is, you said folks say "its not so bad" or "I dont feel they did."

WHy do you keep asking then?

I call this the Dragonsfoot defense: "If they would have acted reasonable we didn´t have to attack them on a regular basis." I´m sorry, but "i didn´t like a lot of their decisions and actions" still has a lot of "i" in it and not only "their."

Incorrect. Many of the situations were of WotC's own making. YOu can label or shove the fault on other people, unltiately they lie at WotC's feet with their decisions.

 

[Nikosandros]

Speaking of boxed sets. Of which they've had several. Even one recently.

Ditto for Green Ronin which is launching a new RPG via the boxed set method.

The new edition of WHFRP is also coming out as a boxed set and IIRC, the first expansion will be a boxed set too.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

We know what you think they say, the request was for actual quotes, not for your interpretation of the quotes. Because the examples you provided are chock full of interpretation, and don't necessarily reflect what was actually said.

As I said, I do not have the books or quotes with me on hand :U

Why does it matter exactly what they said, if you don't mind me asking? Clearly, people were insulted by the marketing. It's very likely that WotC didn't intend to insult their customers, ok, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened.

When you tell someone "Well, I wasn't insulted, and you shouldn't be insulted either," then you're demeaning them and their opinion. You don't get lively discussions going by telling people to shut up because they don't matter.

I'm glad a lot of people here were happy with the marketing and didn't feel snubbed or insulted. Really, feeling snubbed and insulted sucks, and it's better when people don't feel that way. But others were, and when you tell them to suck it up and go away, you're telling them that they don't matter. And such is what brings about edition wars. Because here's the thing - the edition wars weren't about one edition being "better" then the others, the edition wars were about two groups who felt the other was trying to marginalize them, and felt they had to marginalize them better, faster, and more.

Telling a fairly sizable group of people, at least on these forums, that they're wrong about being insulted because you didn't feel that way? That's marginalizing. It raises hackles. You're telling them - be it that you mean to or not - that they should leave because they don't matter.

And it's most not-awesome.

 

[Hussar]

Craft skills are lame, talking to villagers is lame, lawful good paladins are lame, aasimar are lame, gnomes are lame, the Great Wheel is lame.

Consequently, they sure did take a lot of time out of their day to correct me on what I'm supposed to think is more cool and more fun.

A lot of people, both 4e fans and not, felt talked down to from their marketing. For all they "We're gamers just like yourself!" stuff that was going on, the marketing took a very high and mighty "We know what's best" approch.

Lastly, those two things of "Here, pay for our designer notes" that they released sold me off of a game faster then anything else could have.

As was mentioned earlier, try re-reading those blog posts without the reader filter you had in place at the time. Try it now, with a bit of time to lend objectivity.

/snip

I bet if we went back and read those previews now, they'd make a lot more sense and would seem less insulting to 3.5.

Yup.

/snip

Surely we can agree that there is/was room for improvement?

I certainly can. There's always room for improvement. However, there is a difference between, "They can do this better" and "I can't believe how incredibly crappy they did!"

As I said, I do not have the books or quotes with me on hand :U

Why does it matter exactly what they said, if you don't mind me asking? Clearly, people were insulted by the marketing. It's very likely that WotC didn't intend to insult their customers, ok, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened.
/snip

It matters because it gets to the heart of why people say they were insulted. I am of the opinion that people were being "insulted" simply because they were pissed off about 4e and wanted to find something to be insulted about. That there are more than a few people out there who began spreading the whole "WOTC is pissing all over gamers" meme in an attempt to somehow prove they were right about how bad 4e was.

In other words, people were being overly think skinned and deliberately taking offense based on their opinion of the new edition and it had little or nothing to do with what was actually being said.

Heck, a ways back upthread Windjammer mentiones the "cloud watching" blog post. Yet, when that post was re-examined a few months later, nothing insulting was found. To the point where those who had originally claimed to be insulted actually accused WOTC of editing the blog post after the fact to remove any insulting elements. Yet, that was proven 100% false.

When people are willing to flat out lie in order to "prove" that they were insulted, I'm less than willing to accept wrongdoing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Its the product too, but yes customer relations helps alot. Its why games workshop has a crappy reputation with many of its fans where as privateer press can get a pass in the miniature game world.

Customer relations always helps. Its not the only thing.....but it helps.

Games Workshop took a beating here in D/FW when they opened their store at Grapevine Mills mall.

The problem wasn't that they opened a store, it was that they undercut the prices their own stuff was selling for in other stores.

A lot of stores sold off their remaining stock of GW product in clearance sales at deep discounts and didn't re-order.

Eventually, relations normalized, but it took a while.