On the matter of half-orcs

[Wik]

Wik, that's a good point about rape in the context of a game. But I'm not sure how that relates to half-orc origins. You wouldn't have to use the "R" word even once, no matter what option you went with. 3e doesn't.

It really doesn't. I'm just trying to explain my own position on the issue, and why I can understand why wotc would want to avoid it.

Personally, if they'd rather go with the Eberron approach (two cultures interbred) or the "Ancient Curse" Approach, I'd be fine with that - other GMs can just retcon it back to the old way, and everyone's happy.

 

[usdmw]

This will be my last post on this matter.

It is clear that to some people rape is such an emotionally-charged issue that they can not, will not, tolerate its presence in their game reality, even in subtext. This is perhaps because rape has more resonance to them than murder or other acts of violence, for whatever reason. For them, this change makes the game more palatable. Good for them.

I consider myself a pretty sensitive person, and I game with several women currently, and have gamed with dozens over the years. Not once has anyone, man or women, ever seemed even slightly uncomfortable with the origins of half-orcs in D&D, the rapacious natures of Broos in runequest, the violent overtones of the vampiric Embrace, the brutality of slavery in Hyboria, the blasphemy of Call of Cthulhu, or any other fantasy evil. I suppose it could happen, but those reactions wouldn't be limited to the game. They would be provoked by endless elements of popular fiction, television and film. If it happened, I would apologize for offending, offer to ignore such themes, and move on.

While the influences of D&D have increased over time, the game's origin is based on pulp fantasy: Howard, Lieber, etc. Those sources often dealt with sexuality, brutality, and violence. Let's not forget Arthurian traditions, which have several instances of rape. I think one might find one or two examples in the real world as well.

The game includes (or included prior to 4e; I'm not familiar with 4e) spells that bend the target's will, making them little more than slaves, potions that produce artificial feelings of romance (and presumably lust), magical helms that make their wearer virtually irresistible, and evil creatures that can possess the bodies of their victims.

While I don't care about the origins of half-orcs, or centaurs, or half-dragons, or ogrillions, or any of the other fantasy creatures in the D&D reality, the suggestion that rape doesn't exist in a world of evil creatures, coercive magic, and dark cults seems simply bizarre to me.

 

[SHARK]

This will be my last post on this matter.

It is clear that to some people rape is such an emotionally-charged issue that they can not, will not, tolerate its presence in their game reality, even in subtext. This is perhaps because rape has more resonance to them than murder or other acts of violence, for whatever reason. For them, this change makes the game more palatable. Good for them.

I consider myself a pretty sensitive person, and I game with several women currently, and have gamed with dozens over the years. Not once has anyone, man or women, ever seemed even slightly uncomfortable with the origins of half-orcs in D&D, the rapacious natures of Broos in runequest, the violent overtones of the vampiric Embrace, the brutality of slavery in Hyboria, the blasphemy of Call of Cthulhu, or any other fantasy evil. I suppose it could happen, but those reactions wouldn't be limited to the game. They would be provoked by endless elements of popular fiction, television and film. If it happened, I would apologize for offending, offer to ignore such themes, and move on.

While the influences of D&D have increased over time, the game's origin is based on pulp fantasy: Howard, Lieber, etc. Those sources often dealt with sexuality, brutality, and violence. Let's not forget Arthurian traditions, which have several instances of rape. I think one might find one or two examples in the real world as well.

The game includes (or included prior to 4e; I'm not familiar with 4e) spells that bend the target's will, making them little more than slaves, potions that produce artificial feelings of romance (and presumably lust), magical helms that make their wearer virtually irresistible, and evil creatures that can possess the bodies of their victims.

While I don't care about the origins of half-orcs, or centaurs, or half-dragons, or ogrillions, or any of the other fantasy creatures in the D&D reality, the suggestion that rape doesn't exist in a world of evil creatures, coercive magic, and dark cults seems simply bizarre to me.

Greetings!

Excellent post, my friend. I entirely agree. Your own experience matches my own.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

5 pages and no one has mentioned how the half-dragon template can be applied to just about anything? Even plants, swarms and oozes? How's that for a mental picture?

The biological impossibility makes it rather difficult to think about whether the ooze can give consent.

The Embrace is clearly a rape-proxy that serves as a central theme for a very successful rpg.

Is it? Clearly?

I've had English teachers tell me weird things like, so-and-so character saying this-and-that about putting a pizza in the oven meant he wanted to go back into his mother's womb. Maybe my lack of creativity is a mental defense? Or maybe not everyone interprets it that way.

In V:tM IIRC the victim of being bitten experiences pleasure, delirium or something along those lines, but I've never had a Storyteller go into any detail about that. (And I suppose that goes double if both the attacker and victim were male.) I literally never thought about that until just now.

 

[Raven Crowking]

A couple of thoughts.

(1) Some of you should really avoid Ovid's Metamorphoses. I'm reading it currently, and, like much classical Greek literature, there's a lot in there that would make a lot of folks uncomfortable.

(2) Some folks find the inclusion of demons and devils to be as problematic as the implied backstory to half-orcs may be to others. This reminds me rather much of 2e's name-changing-to-protect-the-innocent. However you might feel about that.


RC

 

[ProfessorCirno]

A couple of thoughts.

(1) Some of you should really avoid Ovid's Metamorphoses. I'm reading it currently, and, like much classical Greek literature, there's a lot in there that would make a lot of folks uncomfortable.

(2) Some folks find the inclusion of demons and devils to be as problematic as the implied backstory to half-orcs may be to others. This reminds me rather much of 2e's name-changing-to-protect-the-innocent. However you might feel about that.


RC

I should point out that rape doesn't make me uncomfortable, merely that I've rarely seen it included well in a game. I don't mind a setting having rape in it. The problem is when you have an entire race of rape babies, or that rape seems to be the default for some things or places. In the end, I merely have to question the neccesity of it. I think it comes down to a simply disagreement on wether or not rape is as charged of a subject for some as it is for others.

Also, chalk me up as someone who perfered baatzu and tanari over devils and demons. It's not because I DISLIKE "Demon" and "devil," I just find it more creative and open to better interpretation.

Oh, and while it may have ONCE been rape-esque in literature, I don't think (at least in oWoD) that being embraced by a vampire is that similar to rape.

 

[JackSmithIV]

I'll just come out and admit it: I have a problem with half-orcs. And it is entirely connected to the rape issue. I'm suprised that most people really have no problem imagining humans consensually having sex with orcs. I am very good at suspending disbelief, but a human wanting to have sex with an orc? Not for thousands of dollars would I have sex with an orc.

I understand that yes, our cozy civilized culture has certain images we limited ourselves to in the spectrum of sexual desirability. But I grew up in a very diverse part of New Jersey. I don't have any close friends who are not black and also have not been in an interaccial dating situation. My girlfriend of 2 years in high school was Korean, and I've dated more than one black woman in my teenage years.

But THAT is where I draw the line in the sand. Sex with a dragonborn, even, sure. A big lizard, sure. I can actually imagine consensual sex with a gorilla before sex with a feral, wild, evil orc. I understand that not all orcs are evil, yes, but in core? In the Points of Light philosophy, most people are scared commoners and farmers who live on isolated farms. Their exposure to orcs is fairy tales that make you want to soil yourself at the sight of an orc. Even then, sure there are the occassional once-in-a-blue-moon consensual incedent.

Maybe it's that I wasn't around for earlier editions. Maybe it's just me, really. Maybe it's just that I find no need for half-orcs as a core, playable race. I mean, orc is a monster race, isn't it? What vital niche do they fill? We don't have half-dwarves, which I find much more feasible.

But for me, it's the one thing in all D&D core I'm just not comfortable with. Because the images above, when you add sex, puts rape in my head. Even in just the slightest. They're orcs! Sure, some societies accept orcs. Certain entire campaign settings do. But it's... just a little bit of a stretch for me.

ORCS!

I don't know where I was going with this. It's just so weird reading this thread. There aren't more people who feel this way?
​

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I teach a course in creative writing, and I find the idea that adults cannot or should not deal with the most unpleasant aspects of human evil to be deeply patronizing. D&D is a game, but it is a game that represents a SORT of reality, if not reality itself. A reality without abuse or violence is not the sort of reality I can find particularly realistic.

I teach writing courses as well, and I have to say that I have a divergent opinion. That might be because I also work at shelter for victims of domestic violence, but I don't think its fair to require someone who has already dealt with an issue of trauma in a real way to then deal with it in a fictional way. To enjoy, in some sense or another, a recreation of their trauma.

As a social exercise it's flippant, callous, and an abuse of power. And I would willingly sacrifice verisimilitude - were that necessary - in order to avoid such issues in the classroom.

DnD is similarly less a work of fiction than a social activity. Certainly, rape can be treated very well in such a context, but including a race that has its origins in rape is neither necessary to such a treatment not particularly tasteful. It opens up the issue of social abuse by hardcoding the trauma into a game choice put forward by the publisher.

It's not a cut and dry situation. If WotC chooses to include rape as a character origin then that's an artistic decsion that must be justified. If WotC chooses to eschew such tactics than that's a moral decision to be commended.

I'm curious what some of you might say about the White Wolf Vampire game. In it every character has been at some time physically overwhelmed and violated. The character has to deal with that violation, not for a lifetime, but for eternity. Many of those characters visit that violation on others. Some characters glory in their vampiric condition, while others loathe it and despise their sire. The Embrace is clearly a rape-proxy that serves as a central theme for a very successful rpg.

I'm far from convinced that the Embrace is a rape-proxy. In the context of the game and vampire lore in general it would be far more accurate and fair to call it a sex proxy. There is the possibility of violation inherent in the act, but it's certainly not necessarilly rape. Certainy, it isn't treated as rape in the game or the lore.

That said, in the Lunar Exalted source book by that same company - at least in the first edition of the game - the subject of rape as an origin story for a character and a common practice by a character's culture is brought up. It's also dealt with with an extended sidebar discussion of the ethics and considerations of bringing rape into a RPG environment.

So I would argue that White Wolf is very aware of the ethical and social weight behind the subject and its unique qualities in a game that is otherwise dedicated to violence.

 

[arscott]

I can understand WHY wotc might wish to sanitize parts of the game for a younger crowd. What I don't understand is why players should feel enobled that such a measure has been enacted. D&D has always been a game for adults, playable by children. If it has now become a game for children, playable by adults, then that's quite different. AD&D 2e had many comparable changes (elimination of the assassin and half-orcs, renaming of demons), and those changes were largely demonized.

The Dark Knight didn't have any rape in it. Does that make it a kid's movie? Does the lack of rape make Saving Private Ryan suitable for youngsters?

D&D can still be a game for adults without in any way referencing rape. And in every instance of rape in a D&D game I've ever seen or heard about, it made the game more juvenile, not less. If it were just me saying this, then I'd assume my anecdotal evidence was a statistical fluke and just forget about it. But it's clear from this thread that other people have the same problem.

In short, I don't object to Rape in D&D because it's exposing children to adult material. I object to it because it tends to make adults act like children.

 

[SHARK]

The Dark Knight didn't have any rape in it. Does that make it a kid's movie? Does the lack of rape make Saving Private Ryan suitable for youngsters?

D&D can still be a game for adults without in any way referencing rape. And in every instance of rape in a D&D game I've ever seen or heard about, it made the game more juvenile, not less. If it were just me saying this, then I'd assume my anecdotal evidence was a statistical fluke and just forget about it. But it's clear from this thread that other people have the same problem.

In short, I don't object to Rape in D&D because it's exposing children to adult material. I object to it because it tends to make adults act like children.

Greetings!

Ok. (Emphasis is mine). I asked this question earlier--upthread--where I gave examples of how rape is referenced rather *frequently* in my campaigns. Your commentary here is a good enough prod to my questions, though. Perhaps I am not understanding precisely many of the tangents of argument in this thread. Perhaps you, Arscott, can help explain to me what is being argued, what I am arguing--and then whatever my misunderstanding seems to be. In light of my earlier post, how does my common inclusion of rape in the game make it "more juvenile, not less"? Additionally, how does my frequent inclusion of rape in the campaign "make adults act like children"?

DR. STRANGEMONKEY:

How would my frequent inclusion of rape in my campaigns serve as me making the trauma of rape into a "recreation"?

Thanks, my friends, for you commentary and input. I hope that my argument for including rape on a rather frequent basis is clearly understood. My campaigns are quite mature, very medieval, with of course lots of magic involved. The world the campaign is set in is a violent, brutal world of terrifying monsters and hordes of barbaric, savage humanoids--not to mention the vast hordes of dark, unwashed humanity that have been seduced by evil and darkness, and fully embraced the dark whisperings of evil--rape, slavery, murder, brutal torture, and the grinding despair and oppression of millions of human beings is an ongoing, daily reality for many in the campaign world. And the player characters are involved in dealing with these topics and aspects of reality on a frequent basis. It's something of an exaggeration, of course, but players in my campaign could almost easily ask, "Who isn't being seduced, enslaved, raped, brutally tortured, murdered, or otherwise somehow crushed by the evil boot of despair and oppression?"



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK