One Annoyed God + One Stuborn Player

[Kastil]

I had a few problems in the game I DM from a couple of players that prompted mme to write up some gaming/house rules of conduct. Here's one that would imply for this situation:

10) CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS
This is best described in an example:
You walk into town and go into the local tavern. Someone looks at you cross eyed and you take up the closest bar stool. You then proceed to introduce the barstool to the face of the offending patron. A bar brawl ensues and the local law comes in. Guess what? You started it so guess who's going to jail and possibly losing some of his possession s to fix the damage to the bar? YOU!!!
I expect you to use that gray matter betwixt thy ears.
I cannot expect current party members to welcome new ones with open arms. It is up to you to gain their trust so don't blow it!


It's better to keep it real. Whether or not the Gods have a problem with the character, I think the clergy might. Perhaps a little tact should have been used by the player. After all, the BBEG couldn't hole up in the church forever, right?

 

[CCamfield]

To be honest... ok, sure, the clerics are upset because someone tried to commit murder within the temple. However, from what you've said the villain tried to purchase healing services; he didn't out-and-out ask for sanctuary.

I don't know if the clerics really ought to go so far as to put a curse on the PC. The zealot idea is nice; otherwise, what if further down the road, the players future need the help of the church for a particular reason, but the clerics are stubborn or refuse to help until the person who violated the sanctity of their peaceful temple apologizes?

 

[Sanackranib]

I have advice for your stubborn player:

Next time, kill the clergy first, THEN the BBEG (to prevent this raise dead stuff). Oh, and burn all the bodies to ash to make it harder for any of them to be resurrected. In fact, try to reduce the church to rubble (after looting it), to discourage any clergy you might have missed.

Then kill the Guards, including that greedy Captain that took *your* rightfully gained plunder, and get that loot back.

In most game worlds, the God of Magic *STILL* won't give a damn about what you do, or so much as lift a divine finger to either stop you or punish you. The clergy might, but that is why you have to kill them first, and prevent them from being raised.

Hope this helps.

my only question is "where was the partys necromancer during all of this. you animate the BBEG as an example of what the watch commander can expect if he gets involved and march your new minion and his stuff right outta there BwaaaaaaaaaaaHaHaha!!!

 

[Tessarael]

It would be entirely reasonable if the clergy got the characters jailed. In jail or on trial, the characters have to explain their actions. It turns out they were (or were not) justified for attacking the bad guy ...

In particular, it depends on the significance of the sanctity of the church. Is this something that you as a DM have made very clear previously and at the time to the players? If not, then there's no reason for their characters to not go in and take down the bad guy who will pose a threat, and save explanations for later when they have time.

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An example if I may: I was playing a character who killed the magically held apprentice of a necromancer that we were fighting. My character was put in jail, escaped, the party helped track my character down and jail them again. My character spent ~20,000gp on a lawyer, and ended up with several years in jail for murder. A while later, my character was released with a geas to not attack a head wizard in that place (which my character had done while charmed by a vampire).

My character got screwed on some level for killing in cold blood. It had happened before, so I guess the party was itching to punish my character for it. What irritated my character (and me) most was the lack of loyalty from fellow party members - my character escaped twice and was hunted down by the party, eventually with scrying (the character's disguise didn't help) and teleport. Blech. This has had long term repercussions on the campaign. In particular, several of the characters have very little trust for each other as a result.

See this account for the details:
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~chinnery/norse/jail.html

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Be very careful about railroading characters into morality lessons.

If the clergy can't get the characters jailed, then sure let them pester other churches to excommunicate the characters. However, don't just assume that politics is white and white. Some of the other smaller churches may take advantage of it, say the big church screwed up, plaster the newspapers with them bringing back a bad guy, paint the characters as heroes, and so forth ... Don't play it black and white, some people don't like acting in a morality play.

There's nothing wrong with a player who enjoys playing chaotic characters who buck authority. Just make sure that sometimes there is a (game world reasonable) price attached. And that price isn't always going to be doing what the authority tells you, but it may mean you're harrassed if you don't get along with them - and hey some folks will respect you for that too.

Just my thoughts ...

 

[Iced Tea]

Exactly my point, this is a question of authority and right of domain, nothing to do with right and wrong. The sanctity of the chruch was violated and actions were taken.

Players in this group have a habit of ignoring the rights or authority of religious organizations and Noble houses over the course of many games. I'm just trying to show them they can't always assume they can get away with that.

If it is the God of Magic, then i woudl assume he has high level wizards/clerics working for him, just have one of them cast gaes/ quest or whatever to make him atone it. also, since he is a sorcerer, i would argue that my powers are inate and not in the realm of teh god of magic. the god of magic, in my minds eye owuld rule over wizardly magic not sorcerery, which is more innate. also, do other gods not have magically inclinned followers, if so, then does the god of magic also control their magic as well? i think a curse from the god will cause negative feelings from the pc.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: One Annoyed God + One Stuborn Player

It is the Church of the god of magic were the transgression occured.

I never thought this question would generate such a tidal wave of opposition. I really should think more before posting 'controversional' questions.

That said, there will be no involvement from the god of any kind. At least not this early in this event.

I suddenly feel like my back is to the wall and I'm being stoned.

This is why these forumns are a good thing. Spare the Players a GMs ill concieved thoughts....

I think you've gained some useful insights from the discussion.
Ie: use reasonable consequences, not 'bolts from the blue'.
NB it's possible that a particular deity, especially a major one, could have more than one aspect and more than one church, being worshipped in different ways. From what you've said it seems unlikely that the actual god would notice the PC, even though the church does.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I am Chris. Not that Chris though.

And ah, my last major character was indeed a CG fighter/rogue/holy liberator/templar/order of the bow initiate . And when all the wizards in the party joined the BBEG's side in an attempt to become gods, and I was left with just a cleric by my side. We kicked their a$$ hero style .

I hesitate to add that I did constantly think of the consequences however, that is how I play my CG. Not just zealotry but doubt in their somewhere. I even managed to convert a neutral NPC by discussing what they were doing with their life for nearly a whole session.

At the same time, I recently played a bard who ran into a church, mocked their relgious system (in a monarchic, monotheistic country) and was chased out with spells being flung at me. They didn't like me very much but I had committed no crime, and I went along to repent (well fake repenting but hey).

I think that you were perhaps a little angry at the player and swept over the way the clerics should have reacted, which IMO would be to hold both players with the authorities and attempt to discover who it was that was killed. Then, with evidence or otherwise the players might have been proven to have done the right thing.

 

[Bagpuss]

Sorry, no. Getting gods involved in the day-to-day happenings of the mortal world is a very Bad Thing, and a very Bad Precedent to set.

It entirely depends on the campaign, and the situation, Centaur's said this was the main church to the god, so divine intervention of some form is not out of the question.

Scarred Lands for example the Gods are young and still actively involved in the day to day business of their followers. It would be highly likely that at least a minion of some form would turn up if someone drew an weapon in their primary seat of worship.

If this was some out of the way shrine to the god then maybe nothing would happen, but as he said this is like walking into the Vatican and attacking someone who is seeking assistance from the Pope or at least his highest ranking Bishops.

But I agree in most campaigns the God wouldn't get directly involved at this point, I think the clerics are highly likely to place a Curse on the character until he atones -6 to Cha seems most likely (perhaps some sort of pox). If the character then actually assaulted the clerics then I would expect divine intervention of some form usually in the form of some powerful (IE: TPK capable) minions turning up.

 

[Marimmar]

Well, having the god himself manifest some power ain't such a good idea, it always seems too heavy handed. Having the clergy go after the player would be a cool plot hook though. He might be declared Vogelfrei by the church of the mage god and thus anyone helping or sheltering him would be an outlaw as well. So from this point on it would be in the best interest of the whole party to have him atone, even those players that aren't involved yet.

~Marimmar

 

[Barak]

And, you know, if I was the God of Magic in your campaign, I'd probably be almost more offended by the -other- character. I mean, he obviously knew that what he did was wrong. He started working on his "atonement" before even being told anything! And yet, he went and did it anyway. The other dude, at least, has the guts to stand behind his beliefs, and argue that he's in the right.

Now, the clergy, of course, would be upset with your "problem player"'s character. But if you want divine retribution, you are looking at the wrong target, in my mind. Atonement can hardly be heartfelt when you knew full well what you were doing was wrong at the time of your actions, and did it anyway....