D&D 5E One of the biggest problems with WoTC's vision of published adventures

[mcintma]

Snip
OTOH - I agree that there should be more handout content. It's missing from modern adventures. And in this day and age it's even easier - just post it as bonus content on your website! Or as a freebie on dmsguild. It doesn't even have to take up page count anymore - just an ad page telling you to go check out the website for bonus content.

Yeah I've not much interest in debating the biz model, you are likely correct but I don't think we'll know unless they try. Good call on the online handouts, like a code for FREE printable maps once you buy the HC, etc.

 

[CapnZapp]

Dear Mr ccs,
It has come to our attention that your imagination is neither Capt Zapp or TSR (A Hasbro division) approved. You are in violation of trademark. As result we have scheduled a 3 thug (srd page 402) beat down. At what time do you want them to show up/
Midnight.
0530 because you like a good blanket party.
1200 In time for lunch period.
1600 to chill after work
2000 because you can't go to sleep without a good beating.
Thank you,
Sincerely TSR Trade Thug lawyers.

PS. Remember to tip Terrance Thug as he has kids to feed.

*golfclap*

But you should have used Assassins. At least someone once thought them comparable to Thugs...

 

[robus]

Well-said, I've been feeling this myself since "Revenge of the Revenge of the Giants" module came out on the heels of "Return to the Return to Ravenloft" (which in turn followed "The Temple of Elemental Evil Minus the Temple")...

I love the old stuff, and I love seeing it brought forward. But dang, I want some NEW stuff!

-The Gneech

Yeah - a tick-tock approach would be very appreciated. 2 big adventures per year. One new and experimental, the other a classic throwback rehash (set in FR to keep their cross-marketing thing going if they must).

 

[Jester David]

Man, I just miss the module format with pull-outs and detachable cover, more easy to reference because it can be laid flat easily and tended to be under 20 pages. It cost say $10 so you didn't feel terrible writing notes in there, or pressing down the spine etc., either.

20 years ago maybe. Now, it would likely cost $20.
If anyone bought it. People uninterested in nostalgia would look at the booklettes and go "ewwww, this thing looks and feels so cheap." Like buying a low quality 3rd Party Product.

Plus, really, if you want a book you can destroy and write all over, it's cheaper to just buy a PDF and send it to a print shop for quick B+W printing and binding.

WotC have produced mostly excellent adventures, kudos to them, but I'd like to see that quality work broken up (e.g. SKT could be 2-3 softcover modules). This may be bad for profits I guess, but on the plus side it would keep the fanbase hyped as new (though smaller) product would be coming more regularly.

It would be bad for profits since the sale of each subsequent issue would drop.
But I doubt WotC would lose that much.

It would cost more. A big chunk of production costs is binding: making the cover, attaching the pages, the cover's art, etc.
Paizo sells a 32-page book for $15, but they expect smaller profit margins than WotC. But we'll use that as the guideline. 32 pages for $15. A big hardcover adventure has 256-pages and costs $50. But broken up into eight 32-page adventures it retails for a total price of $120. Over twice the price. Plus, since it's broken up, you have to worry about getting all the parts, not having the middle part sell out, and take up space recapping the story.

It's waaaay cheaper for us fans to have the single big mega-adventure.

Heck, if you miss the folios the buy a copy of SKT, break the binding, take it to print shop, and have that bound into several small booklettes. And write all over them. If you don't like the idea of not having the hardcover, then buy two copies, knowing the price of getting both and binding might still be less than buying eight small separate modules.

 

[robus]

The other problem i have with most modern adventures, is that they take too long to prep. Some people complained that The lost mines of phandelver didn't contain all the needed information. I think the opposite, the adventures have too much information, it takes too long to read the whole story and what each room in every single place contains. I only need to know the basics and make up the rest as i go along. There is limited amount of stuff i can remember and every time i run premade adventure i have to stop after every room to reread forward what was next. Short couple line notes per room would be enough to tell the room purpose, what monsters and what loot it has.

Interesting point. I'm one of those who complained that LMoP left DMs hanging too much because the adventure gave so much detail and then suddenly nothing. It was like having a crutch that got yanked away on a regular basis leaving the DM to wing it (or fall down as often happened to me )

The idea of a "skeleton" adventure is quite interesting, though I'm not sure how it would work exactly, but the idea that you're given a structure that you flesh out rather than one that's entirely fleshed out (except it isn't, because players) feels like it would be much more interesting, flexible and fun to run.

Does anyone know if there's any example of this that's been published?

 

[JonnyP71]

Man, I just miss the module format with pull-outs and detachable cover, more easy to reference because it can be laid flat easily and tended to be under 20 pages. It cost say $10 so you didn't feel terrible writing notes in there, or pressing down the spine etc., either.

THIS.

Few people seem to have mentioned that the big hardback books, with maps scattered through the adventure, and all the enemy stats grouped together at the back are simply *horrible* to use at the table.... flick pages, flick pages, etc etc

With the old ones, just read it through once or twice, refresh your memory on enemy special powers using the MM (if necessary), and stand the cardboard cover with the maps behind the DMs screen (or even use it as a screen!) - and away you go! The key monster stats were in the encounter text, and sometimes on a separate detachable table as well (yes as well, not instead of, thank you UK2, UK3, UK4 - THAT'S how you present adventures).

 

[JonnyP71]

The idea of a "skeleton" adventure is quite interesting, though I'm not sure how it would work exactly, but the idea that you're given a structure that you flesh out rather than one that's entirely fleshed out (except it isn't, because players) feels like it would be much more interesting, flexible and fun to run.

Does anyone know if there's any example of this that's been published?

Not in modern terms, but B2, L1, and T1 were examples in the past - here's an adventuring locale with some flavour and some ideas, it's stocked with monsters and NPCs, now tie them together and flesh it out with a story...

 

[Sacrosanct]

Several of those adventures belong to the 3e adventure "series" that was meant to be an Adventure Path. Several were large 96-page books, pushing the limits of "short". Several were less adventures and more a series of encounters linked to a map, with the map being as much the selling point.
You're also including several free adventures apparently published on the WotC website. These are less adventures and more encounters and side treks. If those count as "adventures" in 3e, we can certainly count Adventurer's League modules now.

WotC didn't really sell many short adventure modules in 3e a business sense.


4e published 6 "short" adventures. Three four each tier and a couple others.
The remaining adventure products are pretty large, being either big hardcovers or boxed sets. (Or being part of boxed sets, like the adventures in the DM's Kit and Monster's Vault).
I don't know where you're getting the "20" from, let alone in the first two years.

I got the 20 from the same wiki page that listed all of the adventures, and they were all from 2008 to 2010. And you're misunderstanding the point. I'm not talking about page count. I'm talking about level range, and have been since my OP. All of those listed are only for a very narrow range of levels, which is what I've been saying is what I'd like to see.

So yeah, it's not accurate to say that 3e only had "some" of these adventures, and this has been going on for 15 years, as he said. The numbers don't lie.

 

[Charles Rampant]

...well of course the old ones were easier to read and run, they were mostly a map with room descriptions! I found Princes of the Apocalypse much easier to run when the party were in the dungeons than when they were in the town, too. I feel that a lot of the comments here show little attempt made to explain or explore why the old modules were better, and instead just list the differences from modern modules and end with 'and that was better'. I ran Ravenloft I-6, and I certainly can't report it being any easier to run than a modern module. I've prepared Glacier Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, and I'll certainly grant that it was easy to understand, but it was also entirely devoid of plot, characters with personality, or alternative methods to victory than just stabbing stuff.

 

[robus]

I got the 20 from the same wiki page that listed all of the adventures, and they were all from 2008 to 2010. And you're misunderstanding the point. I'm not talking about page count. I'm talking about level range, and have been since my OP. All of those listed are only for a very narrow range of levels, which is what I've been saying is what I'd like to see.

So yeah, it's not accurate to say that 3e only had "some" of these adventures, and this has been going on for 15 years, as he said. The numbers don't lie.

Hmm - I'm not sure I'm looking for an IKEA adventure with no instruction manual on how to assemble it But more like the "storyboard" version of the adventure rather than a finished movie.