One paragon path to rule them all

[Mengu]

For my current game, I'm pondering ditching all paragon paths, and giving everyone the same PP. The characters are all part of an organization called Order of Destiny, I won't bore you with the fluff.

I'm merely entertaining the idea at the moment, I haven't made a decision one way or another, and will share the PP with my players and get their take at some point. But first I want to make sure I've covered my bases, so I would appreciate any feedback, too strong, too weak, too boring, whatever your first impressions, throw them at me.

Edit: Please see newer version in post #10 (this post). Leaving this one up just for version history.

[sblock=Destiny Master]
Destiny Master
"May destiny guide your way."
Prerequisite: You must be a PC in Mengu's game (you must be a Destiny Warrior).

Insert fluff here.

DESTINY MASTER PATH FEATURES
Destined Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you ignore partial and total concealment, and any blinded condition on you, until the end of your turn. In addition, you score a critical hit on a natural roll of 18-20 until the end of your turn.
Destiny Warrior Training (11th level): You gain one of the following depending on your class role. If you have multiple roles, choose one at the time you select this paragon path.

Controller: When you hit a creature with an encounter attack power from your class, you may slide the target 1 square. If the power already slides the creature, increase the distance of the forced movement by 1 square.
Defender: First time you take damage in an encounter, reduce this damage by 10 hit points. Increase the damage reduced to 15 at 21st level.
Leader: When you use a healing power you gained as a class feature, you restore additional 5 hit points to one target of the power. Increase the additional damage healed to 10 at 21st level.
Striker: First time you make an attack roll against a creature in an encounter, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 10 points of damage. Increase the additional damage to 15 at 21st level.
​

Bonds of the Destiny Master (16th level): When you attack a creature adjacent to another Destiny Master, you gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls.
Signature Maneuver (20th level): Choose a daily attack power you know from your class. You may use this power an additional time each day. Every time you gain a new daily attack power from your class, you may replace the chosen power.

Might of Destiny Destiny Master Attack 11
You masterfully manipulate the strings of destiny, imbuing it with surprising power.
Encounter * Reliable
Standard Action * Varies
Effect: Use one of your class at-will attack powers or a basic attack. The first target you hit, takes 2d8 additional damage. If you targeted a single creature, you may also slide the creature 1 square.

Iron Resolve Destiny Master Utility 12
The resolve of a destiny warrior is legendary.
Daily * Healing
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: You regain hit points equal to your level, and gain resist 5 to all damage until the end of your next turn.
[/sblock]

 

[Quickleaf]

It's boring Bonds of the destiny master is cool though. If that stacks and you have 4 PCs clustering around a solo that's a potential +16 damage per hit!

I would make the bonds of destiny the main theme of the path, granting various bonuses keying off of other PCs, a pool of bonus dice to draw from, party-wide effects, that kind of stuff.

Even the role-specific features are boring. So defenders effectively get +10 hit points, leaders heal more hit points, and strikers have boosted alpha strike (ok that ones kinda cool). And controllers getting boosted forced movement only serves some controller builds.

It's boring and has no defined theme (as it is now).

This is why I always start with fluff first

 

[TarionzCousin]

In my opinion, taking choices away from the players about their own characters has the potential to really upset them. One of the only ways to customize your character in 4E is through the Paragon Path.

I wouldn't force them to pick a particular PP, let alone make them all take the same one.

 

[Mengu]

It's boring and has no defined theme (as it is now).

This is why I always start with fluff first

Well, fluff for Order of Destiny is basically the jedi knight order. I already have that as the starting point, I was just trying to give each role something the players would feel is useful.

How do you think it can be made more interesting? I showed it to one of my players (the one who is playing a leader), and he said it's not something he would pick over the existing options. I want to design something that will make most people happy to have this option.

The level 16 feature does not currently stack, it's basically +4 damage if there is an adjacent Destiny Master ally. Doesn't matter if there is one or four. I suppose I could reword it to stack, but I'd have to scale the damage down to maybe 2 or 3.

I can't be very specific about the powers because the PP needs to serve all 6 players. A bit of boringness I guess is to be expected. I'm more concerned about the power level being serviceable, but at the same time if I can make the features more exciting, that'll be great.

I could maybe try and turn the alpha strike into a theme. Here are a few other ideas I might consider for the destiny warrior training feature:

Controller - First time you hit a creature in an encounter and it isn't reduced to 0 hit points, you may choose to either knock it prone or slide it 2 squares.

Defender - the first creature you mark in an encounter suffers a -5 penalty to damage rolls against Destiny Masters.

Leader - during the first round of combat (as well as the surprise round if you are not surprised), Destiny Masters within 10 squares of you gain +2 speed and +2 bonus to attack rolls.

Striker - First time you make an attack roll against a creature in an encounter, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 10 points of damage. Increase the additional damage to 15 at 21st level.

I'm open to more suggestions. Maybe a utility that could be more interesting. I thought about a once per encounter +5 bonus to the next skill check. It's pretty potent, but adds a different dimension to the PP. A boost to bluff ala jedi mind trick, or a boost to athletics to jump the extra square when needed, etc. might be appealing to everyone.

In my opinion, taking choices away from the players about their own characters has the potential to really upset them. One of the only ways to customize your character in 4E is through the Paragon Path.

I wouldn't force them to pick a particular PP, let alone make them all take the same one.

I know, as player I like options too. But I'm trying to find a way to simplify things a bit, so people don't feel they have to pick "the best" PP, even though that's not where they necessarily want to go with their character. Sometimes I see a PP that's perfect for the character, but the implementation is terribly weak. I am actually up for hand designing or modifying a PP individually for each of my players. But I wanted to see if this more generic approach will work first.

I'm a bit sick and tired of the discrepancy in power level of PP's. Most of my players build characters that fit their concept, and don't have access to a lot of resources to do research for what's good and what's bad. In some cases their choice of PP will lead to very weak options, and in some cases super strong ones. I'd rather build a universal PP (or individual PP's) that will make their character better at what they are already good at, fit their concept, and sculpt their roles a bit more.

Simplification was another goal I had with this approach. At first I had half the mind to axe PP's altogether. But that makes characters a bit weaker (or significantly weaker depending on the choice of PP). I'd rather meet the expectations of the game math.

And as I said I will discuss with the players at some point to make a final decision, but I want to go to the table with a PP that will hopefully be attractive to all the players. I realize it needs some more work, and I'm here for advice. So this is first step, to see if I can make everyone happy with one PP that is fair for all. Keep in mind I only have to make 6 people happy, not 6 million.

 

[TarionzCousin]

So this is first step, to see if I can make everyone happy with one PP that is fair for all. Keep in mind I only have to make 6 people happy, not 6 million.

Good response. It sounds like you are aware of the pitfalls. However, if you create a PP that will make 6 million people happy you could sell it to WotC and become rich.

Good luck!

 

[Quickleaf]

Well, fluff for Order of Destiny is basically the jedi knight order. I already have that as the starting point, I was just trying to give each role something the players would feel is useful.

So is Destiny like the Force, it has a light side and a dark side and it binds the universe together?

And are there Jedi mind tricks and telekinesis? And do they the equivalent of light saber magic items?

These probably seem like inane questions to you, but not knowing anything about your campaign I really can only guess. I am not bored by "fluff", in fact I am better at designing rules when the fluff is well integrated. /soapbox

How do you think it can be made more interesting? I showed it to one of my players (the one who is playing a leader), and he said it's not something he would pick over the existing options. I want to design something that will make most people happy to have this option.

So it's a PP which is a power boost for all classes while having a "Jedi knight order" feel? Are you fine making it blatantly overpowered compared to other PPs?

The unique mechanic in your first post was the Bonds of the Destiny Master, that has *lots* of potential, and I would make that the centerpiece of the class from level 11. That concept, not necessarily that specific implementation. Scrap anything superfluous to it.

Places to look for inspiration include "work together" feats, tribal/guild feats, zone powers, minions with "weight of numbers" powers, "universal" epic destinies, etc.

Also if you really are using the Force you could definitely look to the source material for ideas. Force power - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

I could maybe try and turn the alpha strike into a theme. Here are a few other ideas I might consider for the destiny warrior training feature:

Is alpha striking important to the feel of the Order of Destiny? It sorta seems tacked on. If you do want to go that route I would recommend not using "on your first turn" effects, since only dedicated alpha strike players consistently remember these IME.
Also players tend to find circumstantial feature less attractive than constant benefit features.

For example...

Controller - Against creatures adjacent to other Destiny Masters, your powers "till end of turn"'effects can become become save ends instead.

Defender - I liked yours, just get rid of the during the first turn restriction.

Leader - Destiny Masters make a saving throw whenever they benefit from your healing powers

Striker - When you hit enemies adjacent to other Destiny Masters you inflict +10 damage

I know, as player I like options too. But I'm trying to find a way to simplify things a bit, so people don't feel they have to pick "the best" PP, even though that's not where they necessarily want to go with their character. Sometimes I see a PP that's perfect for the character, but the implementation is terribly weak. I am actually up for hand designing or modifying a PP individually for each of my players. But I wanted to see if this more generic approach will work first.

Makes sense. I guess if your players are thinking that way, your Order of Destiny PP will need to clearly stand out as "the best".

As a final observation, the Jedi were primarily peacekeepers and negotiators when not at war or being persecuted. If you're keeping that flavor a class feature to that effect might be fun. Or you might mimic thief knacks/ranger tricks (from essentials) and give the Destiny Master PP a list of minor non-combat features to choose from.

 

[Mengu]

Awesome feedback Quickleaf thanks, I'll need to digest some of this before making more modifications.

In the meantime, here are some answers about Destiny Warriors, and my campaign world in general...

Destiny is the power source for all characters. Yes, I still have divine, arcane, martial etc. as sub-sources, but Destiny is the characteristic style of force if you will. It is the purest form, the Arcane Destiny warrior taps into true arcane knowledge and arcane weaves, the Divine Destiny warrior has the gift of gods. Martial is somewhat like Psionic, it is an inner reserve of energy.

There are a number of other sources.

There is faith magic, which is what your average priesthoods (and cults and druids) have access to. It is the harvesting of energies from a collective source. There is also elemental magic that a number of races and creatures have mastered.

The opposing faction to Destiny Warriors (aka the dark side) is Legacy Knights. They use the same pure forces as Destiny Warriors, wielding power of the gods, and knowledge of the arcane. But they care nothing for balance and preservation of the forces they use. Only self gain and conquest matter. They have a master/apprentice relation among the legacy knights, but there are many legacy knights, and of course they have many allies. The power of a legacy knight is described as 10 times that of a destiny warrior.

Unlike Jedi, Destiny Warriors can (and do) fight wars. It is sometimes necessary to do so, for the survival of the civilized races.

One is born a Destiny Warrior, you can't "become" one. The order has Seekers (nothing to do with the Seeker class), who travel the plateaus and look for young destiny warriors who have manifested powers. The first powers in a youth manifest during stressful times. But it is not easy to always identify one as a Destiny Warrior. The signature indication of a Destiny Warrior is their will for survival and stamina to endure long arduous days (aka healing surges).

Young Destiny Warriors are trained in Destiny Towers (places like Hogwarts, but they also run operations from the towers as well) located in major plateaus.

I don't have anything specifically that's a jedi power like jedi mindtricks or TK. That's not in the system, and I don't want to bend the system too much. And no light sabers or blasters. I borrow concepts, but it's not wholesale star wars. If someone wants to think of their tide of iron as TK, I have no problem with that.

I talked about plateaus a few times and you're probably wondering why. The planet is mostly wild forests and tundras. The wilderness beasts would make it impossible to settle cities. But there are natural high plateaus with sheer cliffs that provide protection from most natural predators, and these plateaus are the points of light. Travel between plateaus is done via air ships. Clusters of plateaus tend to share a culture, and the distance between these plateaus are no more than 1-2 days by ship, sometimes less (think of it as star systems with more than one inhabitable planet or moon). Distance between clusters is much larger, in the order of 10-20 days.

As a final note, I don't mind it if this PP is stronger than any other PP in the game, but obviously not in a way that will trivialize encounters. My players don't have the most optimized characters. I'll do some revisions, and post a new version later.

 

[the Jester]

Your paragon path is nearly as big a part of your pc as your class.

I would not force a one-size-fits-all choice onto the pcs unless they knew it was coming from the very start. That's kind of like telling someone to play a fighter; what if they wanted to play an avenger instead?

 

[Quickleaf]

I would not force a one-size-fits-all choice onto the pcs unless they knew it was coming from the very start. That's kind of like telling someone to play a fighter; what if they wanted to play an avenger instead?

They could play Basic D&D where a Chaotic traveling fighter may become an avenger

 

[Mengu]

Revamped the whole thing, this is take 2.

[sblock=Destiny Master]
Destiny Master
"May destiny guide your way."
Prerequisite: You must be a PC in Mengu's game (you must be a Destiny Warrior).

DESTINY MASTER PATH FEATURES
Destined Courage (11th level): When you spend an action point, you or a Destiny Master adjacent to you gains temporary hit points equal to your healing surge value.
Destiny Warrior Training (11th level): You gain one of the following depending on your class role. If you have multiple roles, choose one at the time you select this paragon path. Also choose a power source from one of your classes as the power source for your Destiny Master paragon path powers.

Controller: Once per turn when you hit a creature adjacent to another Destiny Master, you may slide the target 1 square.
Defender: Creatures you mark suffer a -5 penalty to damage rolls against Destiny Masters when they make an attack that does not include you.
Leader: Once per turn when you use a healing power on a Destiny Master, another Destiny Master within 5 squares of the target regains 10 hit points. Increase the hit points regained to 15 at 21st level.
Striker: You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and +2 bonus to damage rolls against creatures adjacent to another Destiny Master. Increase bonus damage to +4 at 21st level.
​

Bonds of the Destiny Master (16th level): When you attack a creature adjacent to another Destiny Master, you gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls.
Signature Maneuver (20th level): Choose a daily attack power you know from your class. You may use this power an additional time each day. Every time you gain a new daily attack power from your class, you may replace the chosen power.

Might of Destiny Destiny Master Attack 11
You masterfully manipulate destiny because I'm terrible at making up power fluff.
Encounter * Varies
Minor Action * Varies
Effect: Choose one of the following.
* You make a basic attack.
* A Destiny Master adjacent to you makes a basic attack.
* You regain a class encounter attack power you have spent during this encounter.

Force of Destiny Destiny Master Utility 12
You use destiny to give yourself or an ally a physical edge.
Encounter * Varies
Free Action * Close burst 5
Target: You or one ally in the burst
Effect: The target gains a +5 power bonus to their next strength, dexterity, or constitution based skill check or ability check before the end of your next turn, excluding initiative checks.
[/sblock]

So I took the idea from Bonds of the Destiny Master, and ran with it, basing most bonuses to proximity of a Destiny Master. In some cases this wasn't yielding very usable results, so I expanded the range of some of the bonuses. I'm not too worried about the controller feature, since I don't have any controllers in the party at the moment, though it's holding a place in case someone dies and decides to bring in a controller. I briefly pondered the idea of turning until end of next turn to save ends, but my players hate save ends powers, they much prefer until end of next turn conditions, so it would be a downgrade as far as they are concerned. Slide is always useful.

The leader in my game already has mark of healing, so saves are possible that way, no need for a PP feature to do the same. I think extra healing to another target should work quite well. Originally I had the extra healing apply to an adjacent target, but that might be too hard to make use of, so I changed it to target within 5.

I think the PP might still be just shy of competing with top dogs like Stormwarden, Kensei, Pit Fighter, Shock Trooper, Son of Mercy, Dreadnought, Hospitaler, Warchanter, Morninglord, Battle Captain, etc. But I feel the potency will be just below that tier, on par with or better than Adroit Explorer, Turathi Highborn, Questing Knight, Academy Master, Battlefield Archer, etc. which is what I'm aiming for.

I realize the PP doesn't currently allow for certain customization/specialization options like Seldarine Dedicate, Polearm Master, Disciple of the World Serpent, etc. But if it seems my players want it, I could for instance trade the Destiny Warrior Training feature with the feature they want. If my shaman wants difficult terrain around his spirit companion (with World Serpent), he can ditch the leader feature from the PP, and have the difficult terrain instead. I'll keep the door open for customization. I wanted some uniformity in the PP because I don't feel like contending with rotting tomatoes and caviar at the same table.