D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Chaosmancer]

Not every Fighter is a guard or militia, and not every guard or soldier is a Fighter, but certainly quite a number of them are as their background before adventuring begins. Its part of the class fantasy, just being an average guy who learns to use weapons and pushes themselves down that path.

And part of the class fantasy of the Wizard is that they were just the average girl who learned to light things on fire from reading books and pushed themselves down that path.

And part of the class fantasy of Monks is that they were just the average person who learned how to punch good and pushes themselves down that path.

But Fighter's are stuck being "mundane" and unable to break free while Wizards and Monks are free to do crazy stuff like teleport or shoot lazers. And that is while Fighter's only have about 4 subclasses that are ACTUALLY mundane.

 

[Yaarel]

Celestial and Fiend are pretty much exactly what people have in mind when using the term "supernatural".

Whether Fey and Undead are supernatural or preternatural, is debatable, but they are a similar category.


With this view in mind, "natural" is the same thing as the Material Plane. Thus "supernatural" means extraplanar magic, namely from beyond the Material Plane. I remember, 4e calls the Material Plane, "Nature".


Oddly, this definition of means, the part of the Weave that is native to the Material Plane is "natural".

The 2024 Divine power source explicit derives from the place where Celestials are, possibly referring to the entire Astral Plane. If so, Divine magic might be explicitly "supernatural". If so, it might imply that the Divine classes channel their Weave from the Astral Plane, perhaps via their soul as a conduit.

I view the Arcane power source as the science of tracking the magical properties of ordinary objects, including Hellenistic magic, alchemy, and Celtic potions. Note, Feywild and Shadowfell also exhibit Arcane energy, such as illusion with divination or necromancy. So the Weave itself might be Ethereal force. If so, the Weave is the Ether that overlaps the Material World. The natural objects of Arcane magic guide this Weave.

If the Divine Weave is Astral and the Arcane Weave is Ethereal, then Weave magic is supernatural.


Meanwhile, Primal magic is the magic of nature beings, and Psionic magic is the magic of ones soul (mind, spirit, and ki). Thus Primal and Psionic are innate natural magic. The Martial magic of a Material body is clearly natural.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah. That's part of their background. It stops being important once they get that first level of fighter. Much like how a soldier can be a background for a ranger, barbarian or paladin. Or even a sorcerer. It has no bearing on what the fighter does as a class.

Whether it ceases to be important or not is very much a playstyle preference. I know from experience that if my ranger is from the Troll Moors where troll attacks are frequent, he is very much more likely to be a Monster Slayer subclass than a Gloom Stalker or Horizon Walker. The background influences how his class plays out. Other people might not give a fig and it truly does not matter once you hit level 1.

 

[Maxperson]

I look forward to seeing 20 level classes for bakers, farmers and haberdashers soon.

3e had one. Why not 5e at some point?

 

[Micah Sweet]

And part of the class fantasy of the Wizard is that they were just the average girl who learned to light things on fire from reading books and pushed themselves down that path.

And part of the class fantasy of Monks is that they were just the average person who learned how to punch good and pushes themselves down that path.

But Fighter's are stuck being "mundane" and unable to break free while Wizards and Monks are free to do crazy stuff like teleport or shoot lazers. And that is while Fighter's only have about 4 subclasses that are ACTUALLY mundane.

Again, I don't see a problem with any of this. Are you looking for your fighter to do crazy stuff like teleport or shoot lazers? If so, what level should that stuff come in, because it is, that's when they cease to be mundane.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

One of these days I'm going to have to watch John wick.

I've heard they're good, but I can't watch them as apparently a dog dies in them.

 

[Remathilis]

3e had one. Why not 5e at some point?

Maybe we can kill two birds with one stone and make them all sorcerer subclasses.

 

[Chaosmancer]

agreeing with everything you said right up until that last paragraph where it started being unclear on your intentions

i don't mind the martials 'being special', in fact i want it, but i just don't want 'being special' to mean or require using magic or other supernatural empowerment to 'justify' why they can do that instead of pure strength and skill.

See, this is where things get tricky. Because it all comes down to what you mean.

Magic, as in spells? No. I don't want martials to have spells.

Supernatural Empowerment? Well... what do you mean by that? Do you mean drinking dragon's Blood? Then no. But what about focusing your internal energy and passion to fine point? What about being angry enough that it literally weighs on other people like a second gravity field?

Qi, Life Energy, Aura, Passion, Focus... I'm fine with these things causing supernatural effects. I'm fine with someone who can focus to the point that their sheer intent cuts like a blade. Because they live in a world where everything is magic and that is a thing you can do. But to do that, you need to hone your focus beyond human limitations. And that is a supernatural effect to me.

This is part of why I keep focusing on the end result. Because that is the important part to me, I can come up with a dozen reasons why that result would be possible for a dozen different characters. But I think we keep getting bogged down because the reasons end up causing people who agree with each other on the results to fight.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You're right!

It doesn't even reach mundane levels of power.

Indeed. Other than in their ability to be hit as possible by an orc with an axe and keep going with no penalty despite not having any armour on at the time. And they have that from qhat? L1 or L2 if the orc gets a crit?

Out of combat the fighter is little more than a Commoner. In the base class they gain literally nothing other than increased stats and an increased proficiency bonus. So that's what? Your average level 20 fighter can hit +11 athletics (probably qualify for the Olympics with that - but a wizard can out jump you with a level 1 spell), and +8 in three other skills (a fifth level rogue can do that).

Even in combat a fighter can't keep up with a wizard who is vaguely trying unless they are kitted up like War Machine with equipment they can't make. Their "taking on a horde" is no match for fireballs and they don't have much utility. They aren't much tougher than anyone else in similar kit and have minimal self healing. Which means just about their only thing is single target damage, and by the time casters are bringing summons in to play they aren't even that good at that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

oh yeah exactly, but my point being that the fantasy human who become the fighter or the rogue aren't using anything else that literally everybody else also has the capability of in that world, so by that measure they don't have the 'additional factor' in the way that the other classes do, they don't learn to manipulate the weave, they don't have the assistance of gods, they aren't harnessing their ki the way a monk does or the primal energies like a ranger.

they do have the X factor, but the other classes use a second X factor too, to do the things they do, the fighter and rogue don't.

they might have 'something else' compared to an earth human but in their world they are just as an everyman as you or i, and an everyman in their world can just learn to fight dragons.

See, this is a fundamental difference though.

Literally anyone in the DnD world can study magic and become a wizard. Literally anyone in a DnD world can study martial arts and become a Monk. I also believe the same thing for the Paladin, Ranger, Druid and Cleric.

For me, it is the question of are you BORN special. A Sorcerer is born special. A barbarian is born special. But a fighter or a paladin is not born special. They become special. They become special through dedication and hard work. I just see that the TYPE of things they learn, or the TYPE of dedication they have is different.