D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Minigiant]

@Minigiant

I myself have made and used a classless class. It works fine. The trick is to ensure class features cost what they are actually worth. Features that cost the same amount MUST be about equally desirable in the aggregate. Some features are gated by level.

I started playing at the very end of 3e, designed the classless class for it, and it was far more balanced than any of the other 3e classes. Around this time, was the widespread intense criticism against 3e vancian casting and against 3e gaming imbalances, along with the emergence of 4e.

Bolded is the hard part.

Because internal playtesting ALWAYS misses stuff.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Fanatical faith. Usually in both the oath and a god, but it can be an oath and some other ideal.

Fanatical faith is not exclusive to paladins.

 

[Yaarel]

Bolded is the hard part.

Because internal playtesting ALWAYS misses stuff.

Actually, determining how much a feature is worth turned out to be the easy part.

When a player character has a certain amount of hit points, how many hit points is a player willing to permanently sacrifice if this is the only way to obtain the class feature.

When literally trading hit points for features, things get real, real fast.


The hit points for features works best for the features at the lowest tier, levels 1 thru 4. The higher tier features rely more on extrapolating from the lowest tier, while scrutinizing the spells in each spell slot to decide what SHOULD a character be able to do at the levels of that spell slot.


For 2024 to recalibrate the spells in each slot, to fix every subpar spell, is vital for the balance and wellbeing of the 5e game engine.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You mean the class most often mocked for being so single-note that they could barely function in a party? Oh wow, I would sure love to limit myself to that again. Because before 3.5 Paladins had to be lawful good, honest, couldn't adventure with "evil people" had to give their belongings to others, ect ect ect. You were handed a script, and lost everything if you deviated from it.

3.5 gave you a set of scripts, making a paladin for each alignment...

And 5e was finally like, "why don't we let people decide for themselves what their character finds important?"



Why can't they come from your devotion?

Because "devotion" doesn't give you superpowers by itself.

 

[Minigiant]

Y

Exactly, that's my point. Changing that changes the class's identity. This would be a good opportunity for one of your 30 new classes.

Paladin- Spellcasting Divine Warrior of a God or Religion
Crusader- Non-spellcasting Divine Warrior of a God or Religion
Zealot- Spellcasting Divine Warrior of a Cause
Cavalier- Nonmagical Warrior of a Cause or Religion

 

[Minigiant]

Actually, determining how much a feature is worth turned out to be the easy part.

When a player character has a certain amount of hit points, how many hit points is a player willing to permanently sacrifice if this is the only way to obtain the class feature.

When literally trading hit points for features, things get real, real fast.

Combos buddy.
It works are your table.

$100 if you make if public and sell, some optimizer breaks something.

Remember, 3e worked fine in the internal playtests of WOTC. Same with 5e. Playtesters and QI are paid positions in companies for a reason.

 

[Mecheon]

Cavalier- Nonmagical Warrior of a Cause or Religion

I mean, I'd say a cavalier should moreso be a reckless, probably fast warrior, generally associated with horses

Hot Rod from Transformers is a cavalier and I wouldn't really call him any of that

 

[Yaarel]

Combos buddy.
It works are your table.

$100 if you make if public and sell, some optimizer breaks something.

Remember, 3e worked fine in the internal playtests of WOTC. Same with 5e. Playtesters and QI are paid positions in companies for a reason.

Combos are rare, but are easy to handle via level prereqs and rethinking.

Sometimes it makes sense to repackage a combo as a single option. Sometimes one needs to realize how powerful one of the components actually is thus increase its cost or level. Sometimes it makes sense to rewrite a feature to prevent a certain combo.

Generally, one looks closely at the character optimization threads to assess the consensus that emerges about how valuable a feature is.


Also the classless class doesnt need to have every option that exists in the game. It can focus on a solid assortment of options, and expand cautiously from there.

 

[Minigiant]

I mean, I'd say a cavalier should moreso be a reckless, probably fast warrior, generally associated with horses

Hot Rod from Transformers is a cavalier and I wouldn't really call him any of that

That's more or less what it is.

A warrior who masters horsemanship, weapons mounted troops use, and charges. They're not magical so their religious shouting doesn't do anything. Their devotion to the cause just lets them endure the training and be willing to CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGE!!! at any ABOMINATIONS, HERETICS, AND FALSE GODS!!! without brain saying "You gonna die, brother. You see that thing"

They get to charge before rolling initiative.
"OMG he just ran in."

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson

Here is what the UA6 playtest Paladin says for 5e 2024.



Charisma, the ability to influence and inspire others is a central mechanic and concept. It also relates to helping a group maintain morale to fight for a cause.



"To stand against corruption" relates to maintaining ones own personal integrity. What one says and what one does, need to match.

"To stand against annihilation" relates to a meaningful, self-sustaining, enduring, Material Plane.



There are many different kinds of Oath, including nontheistic and theistic. The motive for the commitment might be out of idealism or desperation.

The Oath is the magic of words and meaning.

Divine magic is symbolic, linguistic, and relies on meaningfulness. Words create the multiverse. Oaths transform the multiverse in a meaningful coherent way.



A "blessed" warrior connotes the Divine power source from an Astral paradigm, archetype, or ethical ideal. The ideal empowers the transformative effort to cohere the world to the idea. Those Paladins who are Good, strive to make the world a better place.



Paladins are aggressive. They are warriors, and champions, and able to face adversity and adversaries. They are wholehearted and Fight with integrity.

Not all Paladins are Good. Some are Lawful championing a group, some are Chaotic championing individualism.

An Evil Paladin is less an option in the Players Handbook. But the Evil ideal would also be wholehearted and consistent, and transforming its community toward predatory self-empowerment.



Paladins are warriors, but their ideological magic expresses a higher priority.

They are very much the magical champions on behalf of a CAUSE.



Here, "annihilation" literally means to cease to exist. But the implication is, for the Material world to lose its meaning and purpose is the same thing as to cease to exist. It would be the end of the world as one knows it.



Here, the Paladin class description gently suggests how the class might fit within a particular choice of setting.



Here, the description offers a rationale for an adventuring game.




The above is what a "Paladin" is.


The archetype of the Paladin comes from the reallife historical traditions, relating to the knights and chivalry. The reallife inspirations are sometimes deeply Evil. For example, during various crusades, knights were often hatesgroups that committed atrocities against innocent Jewish communities across Europe and into Asia. It is ok to remember that D&D is borrowing from traditions that can be "fanatical" and harmful. But the UA6 Paladin doesnt lean into this darkside.

The core Oaths are: Devotion (compassion), Glory (heroism), Ancients (hope), and Vengeance (justice).

The adherents of these causes can be calm, reasonable, fair, and sane.

You put a lot more stock in the playtest than I do. I remember how much things change from the final playtests to what shows up in print. These words don't mean anything to me until the books are printed and they show up there....................or not.