D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Chaosmancer]

Sure, you can have it work however you want in your own game. What you can't do is tell other people what the game is about without clear proof in the text.

Funny thing. You told me that the majority of people in the DnD world were non-supernatural humans... and yet when I asked for clear proof from the text, you seem to have completely lost track of that post and moved on without a word.

Were you telling me what the game is about without clear proof in the text?

 

[Micah Sweet]

You don't play 5e anyways

I make use of WotC 5e material, just like I do a number of other 3pp D&D publishers (most for their legally-controlled IP). They're just like everyone else as far as I'm concerned, but I use Level Up (a 5e game) as my base because I like it a lot better.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Funny thing. You told me that the majority of people in the DnD world were non-supernatural humans... and yet when I asked for clear proof from the text, you seem to have completely lost track of that post and moved on without a word.

Were you telling me what the game is about without clear proof in the text?

Did you ask for proof? I'm pretty sure the entry on humans says they are the most populous heritage.

 

[Chaosmancer]

As an inside I really hate the word 'mundane' being used as a stand-in for not supernatural. It breathes life into the notion that only magic can be incredible, fantastic, special. Looking at all the things that exist in our world and calling the artistry of the great architects, the prowess of great athletes and the genius of greatest scholars mundane is a phenomenon I will never understand. There are plenty of wondrous things and wondrous people I would never consider mundane.

That is a fair point, but I think it ends up becoming a matter of perspective. I use the terms mundane and supernatural from the perspective of comparing this world tho the magical and fantastical worlds of DnD. That isn't meant to lessen the achievements of people in our world, but to put into perspective that the fantasy world is more than our world.

 

[Yaarel]

I make use of WotC 5e material, just like I do a number of other 3pp D&D publishers (most for their legally-controlled IP). They're just like everyone else as far as I'm concerned, but I use Level Up (a 5e game) as my base because I like it a lot better.

Yeah. Levelup is 5e.

"5e" is a game engine.

 

[FrozenNorth]

You wrote:

Can you provide an example of a mundane character in fiction that can plausibly stand up to 10th level + threats without supernatural aid? If not, how can that specific thing really be a class fantasy?

I responded with several examples, including Batman and Green Arrow.

You responded by shifting the goalposts.

In the stories where this is relevant, both Batman and Green Arrow are playing a narrative game with a lot of metacurrency, certainly not D&D. In their own stories they tend to be more grounded.

All non-tabletop characters benefit from plot armor and metacurrency. That is the difference between written fiction and a tabletop game. Your distinction doesn’t hold up.

You claimed that a mundane character can’t be a class fantasy because there are no fictional mundane characters that can challenge a CR 10 creature.

Except there are. Batman fights multiple parademons. Jack the Giant-killer kills multiple giants. Sinbad the sailor defeats rocs and other monsters. Ulysses defeats the sirens and the cyclops.

Players definitely seek to emulate the fantasy of playing those characters.

Beowulf isn't mundane. The feats he is described as accomplishing are beyond human ability.

I read Beowulf. Nowhere in the saga does it explicitly claim that Beowulf is extraordinary or supernatural. Therefore he is mundane.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Fiction where metaphysics of all those different IPs would exist at once would be an utter mess. D&D doesn't need to do that, it shouldn't try to do that. They need to choose how things work in their IP, and coherently represent that.

while true, that doesn't mean you can't produce drastically different feeling casters by playing with the one system you have in different ways, like look at the warlock, technically it's still very much part of spell slots and level system but the design of pact casting puts a unique spin on how it uses slots and levels and manages to come out with a caster that uses the same base system but feels very different to use.

gandalf: limited spell slots per level in exchange for enhanced martial capabilities, gains longsword proficiency
merlin: casting limited to 1/2casting and rituals, no cantrips, has expertise in multiple knowledge skills
harry potter: specialises in cantrips and limited spells know, spell list curated with infinite casting in mind
constantine: battle mage, inherent warcaster feat and metamagics? i don't know i never read constantine but you get the point.

you can produce a dozen different feels of caster without building a dozen different IP's systems into your game if you use the one you do have in the right ways

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I read Beowulf. Nowhere in the saga does it explicitly claim that Beowulf is extraordinary or supernatural. Therefore he is mundane.

ok, look, i get claiming he's not supernatural, but claiming he's not extraordinary is just silly (especially since being extraordinary should be perfectly acceptable for high level characters regardless of whether they're magic or not).

 

[Chaosmancer]

I make use of WotC 5e material, just like I do a number of other 3pp D&D publishers (most for their legally-controlled IP). They're just like everyone else as far as I'm concerned, but I use Level Up (a 5e game) as my base because I like it a lot better.

So, again, you already don't play 5e. You play Level Up. So if 5e admitted to being a game you wouldn't want to play... you'd continue using Level Up. So why should we care if the game you aren't playing becomes something you don't want to play?

Did you ask for proof?

Yes I did.

I'm pretty sure the entry on humans says they are the most populous heritage.

You would be wrong. In addition to being wrong about that, it also states that most humans have traces of the supernatural in them, making them non-mundane, as per our previous discussion. So, they are not mundane and they are not stated to be the most populous. So your point fails on both fields.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Secondary character from Dragonball and Dragonball Z. Regular human and therefore completely overpowered by the majority of characters in the later stuff. His main thing is destructo disks. Married an android, short.

To be fair to Krillan, the creatures mopping the floor with him are sufficiently powerful to destroy the world. The fact that he survives multiple encounters with them is sufficient for me to consider that he would likely win handily against like a D&D Frost Giant.