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D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
It depends on the desires of your group. 13th Age was built around the idea that campaigns are finite, and you'd reach an endgame and stop.

D&D has wrestled with the idea of "endless adventure" for some time. Basic went up to level 36, but later got Immortals rules to beyond. AD&D initially went up to 20, but later we got The Throne of Bloodstone with it's rules for 100th-level characters. 2e also initially went up to 20, but later supplements expanded on this for spellcasters, and the Dark Sun book, Dragon Kings, went up to level 30 with various gonzo abilities.

3e? More of the same, 20 levels, but then the Epic Level Handbook comes out.

4e was built to be levels 1-30, but introduced the concept of tiers, so you knew what you were getting into. Heroic Tier play was just that, you fight orcs and trolls and giants. Paragon play built on that, and by the time you were Epic, you were probably plane hopping and facing demigods- allowing you to get off the ride at any point, or keep going if that's what's best for your group.

5e goes to 20. No sign of expansion beyond that point, but it is also divided into tiers of play, which would ideally let people jump off at any point. But leveling up is too quick for that, and it doesn't take long for games to get past the "sweet spot" of D&D (somewhere between levels 5 and 8). Characters get more impactful abilities, maybe start collecting magic items, and the nature of your opponents shifts- sure, there's still high CR mortal foes, but the bulk of what the monster manual offers is more fantastic enemies to face.

While the number of player characters who reach very high levels is vanishingly small, for most of D&D's history, the desire to keep the game going, with characters continuously growing in power, facing more insane challenges, has been strong, and the game mostly tries to make that possible, even if actually running such games is a serious challenge for any DM. Normally, I wouldn't begrudge the system for allowing some to continue playing even if others find "superheroics" not to their taste.

Unfortunately 5e is seemingly built with a desire to catapult players to high levels at a fairly rapid clip. Like Pathfinder 1e, it really should have given us three different xp progressions, that way if you like Heroic play, you could linger there longer without having to adjust the rate of advancement manually. This has had the effect of making people who prefer "zero to hero" or "classic heroic" play really have to contemplate the higher level play that always existed, but they didn't particularly want to confront (or never had to).

Worse still, while the game is fully built to get characters to high levels, it doesn't do a great job of telling you what to do when you get there.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
"Less player metagame authority over character growth, more diegetic and story progression" has been my personal hobbyhorse for years, but has about as much traction as an ice road trucker. :)
The Marvel Multiverse RPG does not have character advancement. You remain the power you are unless there is a story purpose for that upgrade (you gain the Phoenix Force, you become King of Aasgard, you become Sorcerer Supreme). That way, you focus on the story and relationships rather than gaining more stuff.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I don't know if I explained this or if I did so a bunch of times but.

Here's the problem with mundane

High level Mundane characters are not fun.

But but but..

No. In real life. High level Mundane characters are not fun.

High level Mundanes Auto Succeed.

"I am the Archimage Heroidus!"
Slice!
DEAD

"Tremble before Pit Lord Jermo-"
Arrow!
DEAD

"Behold the Ancient Dragon Garg-"
Jump. Somersault. Smash!
DEAD

High level martials in myth and fantasy would be poor gameplay experiences. They'd be like Jedi. Barring a major physical obstacle, master Force Users can only be stopped by other force users and a select few nonforce users.

So D&D and D&D clones either
  • Stops the game at level 10
  • Changes the rules to create a new mundanity
  • Explicitly place mundanity in the real of magic items
The whole Mundane character argument is one of whether we use true Mundane rules or adopt other more gamist or narrative Mundane rules and which ones.

I get your point, but I also disagree.

Where I think you are more correct, is that high level mundane characters would eventually stop failing at skill checks. But I also think we should have higher level skill challenges, but that's a whole kettle of annoying fish to deal with, and I think would drag the conversation off pace.

Where you are less correct, and focusing your point, is in combat. And I... disagree.

What you are demonstrating here is a difference in power level, not an inevitable result of higher level events. Take for instance the point I brought up before. Most every strength based character has a strength equal to a vampire. So, why not at the point a character is almost as strong or stronger than an Ogre, can we not do things like describing attacks that start tearing up the scenery. Or shooting arrows that tearing through the air and blow off chunks of armor? The enemies are not such that even high level mundane martials would just "win" without a challenge, because those enemies represent a challenge on that level. I mean, I've SEEN combats between two high level "mundane" characters in shows, those don't end with one person instantly winning in a single move.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
"Less player metagame authority over character growth, more diegetic and story progression" has been my personal hobbyhorse for years, but has about as much traction as an ice road trucker. :)
Maybe among the masses. That's what 3pp is for. Let WotC go and Bob's your uncle!
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The Marvel Multiverse RPG does not have character advancement. You remain the power you are unless there is a story purpose for that upgrade (you gain the Phoenix Force, you become King of Aasgard, you become Sorcerer Supreme). That way, you focus on the story and relationships rather than gaining more stuff.
Always something I appreciated about the genre.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
It's less that they aren't fun and more like some folks won't accept them being fun because they do not allow for the non-supernatural fantastic. They need an excuse as to why a person in a fantasy world can do something that your most dead-average Earthican pre-corpse can't.
There's nothing inherently un-fun about being a high level Fighter. You take the hits, you deal the damage, you can play out several fantasies, from the visceral, primal satisfaction of beating someone up with a sword the size of Texas to being a cunning archer, to being a savvy master of tactical combat, and so on.

What is unfun is when the game shifts to requiring you to deal with "weird enemy supernatural ability #483" and you find yourself needing magic to overcome it. What is unfun is when things you struggle with, the magical classes have answers for. What is unfun is when the abilities of other classes are more impactful than what you are given. Like, take Indomitable, which lets you reroll a failed save (which you were probably unlikely to succeed at in the first place, since you can, at best, have 3 good saves), and Mr. Paladin over there gets to add his Charisma bonus to all saves no matter where he is (but for you to get that benefit, you have to be glued to him).

Or how you have no ability to make your attacks more accurate (outside of subclass), but every Barbarian can just give themselves advantage whenever they want, the casters are tossing d4's, d6's, and rerolls around like candy, and the Rogue, of all people, gets the power to say "nah, I hit brah"!

If a Fighter gets grappled, he has to hope he has good Athletics and luck. If a caster gets grappled, hey, they might be able to Misty Step away!

If a melee Fighter has to fight a flying dragon, he has to use a bow or toss javelins. A caster could have powerful spells, or even the ability to leap into the air or fly.

If a Fighter gets poisoned, paralyzed, petrified, or any other of nasty occurrences that he is probably the prime target for being on the receiving end of, he can't do much about it. But a spell can be cast to make that all go away.

By this point, I can tell some people are ready to angrily reply to me on this, so let me be clear. I'm not saying playing a non-supernatural character isn't fun. But D&D is built to make playing a supernatural character potentially more fun, or at the very least, to have abilities to handle the various circumstances the game throws at a character that the non-supernatural character can only dream of.

Which can lead to a miserable experience. I stress the word "can" here because I know, someone is going to say "I've never seen any of this in any game I have ever played or heard of" or "obviously the DM has to do X, Y, or Z to make sure this never, ever happens" or even "working as intended" (lol).

But this is a reality some people do have to deal with, I've seen it a lot, and it's a consequence of the fact that, from the very beginning, D&D's approach to magic has been pretty much "magic can do anything", while trying to keep people without magic more or less grounded when it comes to their abilities.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I get your point, but I also disagree.

Where I think you are more correct, is that high level mundane characters would eventually stop failing at skill checks. But I also think we should have higher level skill challenges, but that's a whole kettle of annoying fish to deal with, and I think would drag the conversation off pace.

Where you are less correct, and focusing your point, is in combat. And I... disagree.

What you are demonstrating here is a difference in power level, not an inevitable result of higher level events. Take for instance the point I brought up before. Most every strength based character has a strength equal to a vampire. So, why not at the point a character is almost as strong or stronger than an Ogre, can we not do things like describing attacks that start tearing up the scenery. Or shooting arrows that tearing through the air and blow off chunks of armor? The enemies are not such that even high level mundane martials would just "win" without a challenge, because those enemies represent a challenge on that level. I mean, I've SEEN combats between two high level "mundane" characters in shows, those don't end with one person instantly winning in a single move.
It's less that they aren't fun and more like some folks won't accept them being fun because they do not allow for the non-supernatural fantastic. They need an excuse as to why a person in a fantasy world can do something that your most dead-average Earthican pre-corpse can't.

It's more that High level Mundanes would squish High level Arcanes, Divines, Primals, Psionics whatever if they are not explicitly stated as being also a martial.

As well making skill challenges High level Mundanes would find challenging would be Impossible for nonMundanes or Mundanes under other paths.

That's bad gameplay for a team game.

Lady Shiva of the DC universe terrifies human, metahumanz and aliens alike. And she's only a regular u augmented human lady.u

But if Lady Shiva attacks you with a sword, you one of 4 things
  • Are one of the maybe 10 people who can block her attack
  • Are immune to sword attacks
  • Are uncatchable or untargettable
  • ARE DEAD
That's bad gameplay for what D&D. High level Mundanes in media are "Dodge or Die", "DC 20 skill check or die", or "Make DC 30 skill check or Suck" over and over and over.

That's before you needing to make rules and ruling for all the untold actions they have via training.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Maybe among the masses. That's what 3pp is for. Let WotC go and Bob's your uncle!
The game I want doesn't exist even among the mass of 3pp, as well as OSR and NSR games, sad to say; believe me, I've looked. Most of my experiments the last few years have been trying to shape 5e into something approaching what I want.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The game I want doesn't exist even among the mass of 3pp, as well as OSR and NSR games, sad to say; believe me, I've looked. Most of my experiments the last few years have been trying to shape 5e into something approaching what I want.
People don't want to admit that a bunch of the community falls into the same 5-6 narrative camps and lot of stuff don't exist because you have 30 companies trying to produce the same thing.

Edit: Admit not attempt
 
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