D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
A Warlock makes a "pact" with a powerful being, or sometimes inherits the magic from an ancestor who made a pact. Reciprocally, A Sorcerer can make a pact, in the sense of being personally transformed by a powerful Dragon, Fey, or Celestial. The Warlock and the Sorcerer are the same.
I wouldn't say this is the same at all. The warlock is making a bargain with something else, but the sorcerer has been transformed

A sorcerer who is part fiend and can call upon that power for any use is thematically completely different to a warlock who's gone and made a deal with the infernal powers for power, by which I mean one of those is, y'know. Merlin and the other is Faust

You would not say Merlin and Faust are the same type of thing
 

log in or register to remove this ad

@Yaarel You truly see no difference, at all, whatsoever, between "I am magical, I have no choice, this is simply what I am" and "I have made a Faustian bargain for power I did not merit"?
These are backstories. If the pact changed you into a magical being, that's same as sorcerer, if it allows you to channel power from an entity, that's cleric, if it gave you access to secret knowledge of magical formulas, that's a wizard. It matter what you are, not how you became that!

Furthermore, I think "Faustian pact: the class" is a bad idea to begin with. It places the pact in the most boring place it could be: in the character's past before the game even begins. Powerful entities tempting characters with power is cool concept and something that is interesting to explore during the play, but as we now have determined that such pacts grant warlock class, this limits their utility in play.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
One thing that is also miss which is inherent to the main division of classes in D&D.

An intelligent being can't give another intelligent being proper spellcasting without being a god.

D&D is halfway written around the concept of evil nondeities raising armies and granting boons in a plan to kill a proper god and take their place. What do these deities have that these extremely powerful immortal beings lack?

The ability to make proper clerics.

Once you're born, if you lack a spark or don't survive an accident, no one can give to real magic except a god.

Warlock magic is not normal magic. It's always been a bastardization of true magic.

Sorcerers are still true mages. That's the main difference.

The magic school dropout gets the "fake wizard/cleric" loophole the Patron Daddy sneaked out for them.
Warlocks are fakes.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
These are backstories. If the pact changed you into a magical being, that's same as sorcerer, if it allows you to channel power from an entity, that's cleric, if it gave you access to secret knowledge of magical formulas, that's a wizard. It matter what you are, not how you became that!
There are 2 different magical beings.

Shazam and Zatanna are both magic users but have different sources and powersets.
Wolverines and Cyclops are both mutants but have different powers.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
You truly see no difference, at all, whatsoever, between "I am magical, I have no choice, this is simply what I am" and "I have made a Faustian bargain for power I did not merit"?
Both classes to do both. The origin stories are fungible.

An inexperienced Human can go to a powerful Dragon and say, "give me draconic magic". Since Dragons tend toward self-interest, some kind of bargain is happen, whether a literal exchange of goods or not. The Human may unwittingly further one of the Dragons plan. It might be the Human has something the Dragon covets. Powerful Dragons emanate draconic influence, and here, transmogrifies the Human draconically at the Humans request. This is a "pact". The Human is a Sorcerer. Other powerful entities such as Archfeys and Arch-celestials can likewise cause sorcerous transformation.

Conversely, a Human can inherit a Warlock pact. An ancestral Human makes a pact with a powerful Fiend. In the bargain, the Fiend demands the lives of ones children, or descendants, such as every third descendant of a third descendant. It is the Fiend that chooses to imbue this power and does so continuously thru each generation. These can be situations where the Warlock is unwilling and defiant, but the Fiend has some longterm goal in mind.

These narratives are origin stories to explain how a draconic or fiendish magic happened. How does a Human do this? Origins stories are interesting and important. But they dont happen on every page of the comicbook or in every sentence of dialogue in a movie. It is BACKGROUND.

The class is something different.
 

One thing that is also miss which is inherent to the main division of classes in D&D.

An intelligent being can't give another intelligent being proper spellcasting without being a god.

D&D is halfway written around the concept of evil nondeities raising armies and granting boons in a plan to kill a proper god and take their place. What do these deities have that these extremely powerful immortal beings lack?

The ability to make proper clerics.

Once you're born, if you lack a spark or don't survive an accident, no one can give to real magic except a god.

Warlock magic is not normal magic. It's always been a bastardization of true magic.

Sorcerers are still true mages. That's the main difference.

The magic school dropout gets the "fake wizard/cleric" loophole the Patron Daddy sneaked out for them.
Warlocks are fakes.
What does this even mean? How is it not "real magic," seems to work just fine. Also the whole god and cleric thing is just a tautology. God is one who can create clerics and a cleric is one who is powered by a god. And why is being able to create warlock instead of clerics a drawback? they're just as powerful so latter doesn't imply weakness. These are just "it is different because we used different word" type of semantical shenanigans.
 


Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
Yeah, plenty of non-god entities have been able to grant spells back in AD&D alone, yet alone nowerdays

The elemental evil crew weren't gods but they could grant spells fine
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
These are backstories. If the pact changed you into a magical being, that's same as sorcerer, if it allows you to channel power from an entity, that's cleric, if it gave you access to secret knowledge of magical formulas, that's a wizard. It matter what you are, not how you became that!
Of course it matters how you became that. That's literally what a hero's journey IS.

Furthermore, I think "Faustian pact: the class" is a bad idea to begin with. It places the pact in the most boring place it could be: in the character's past before the game even begins. Powerful entities tempting characters with power is cool concept and something that is interesting to explore during the play, but as we now have determined that such pacts grant warlock class, this limits their utility in play.
But it must go there. There is no other place for it to go. That's the inherent problem of the Faustian bargain, it is always with an entity that has all the cards.

If it were something to be written by the DM, with every trick in the book, no one would ever play it, because players aren't stupid, they don't sign their (game) lives away for stupid and $#¡††¥ reasons. I doubt most DMs would even want to, since that is even moreso heavy lifting, putting a ton and a half on thr DM's shoulders. You'd be effectively banning the class. (But perhaps that was the intent all along?)

Besides, the actual story (and tragedy) of Faust is everything he does after the bargain, not before. The bargain is the most boring part of the whole thing, mere signing of a form. Being saddled with the terms, straining against limits, either paying comeuppance for hubris or (in more positive tellings) achieving an underdog victory, managing to outwit or outplay a coercive power and genuinely beat them. Both of those are compelling narratives. They have jack-all to do with being a D&D Wizard or Sorcerer.

Both classes to do both. The origin stories are fungible.
No, they don't; and no, they aren't.

The "pact" you describe with this dragon is nothing. It is not a pact. It is, at best, a sale. A one-time, completed transfer.

Likewise, your "inherited" Warlock pact isn't even a pact. The whole point of the Warlock is that a contract requires the participants to willingly accept it. A contract without that initial consent literally ISN'T a contract; even the most twisted devils recognize that.

(Though, in fairness, most D&D devils are outright idiots constantly destroying their own reputation...so it's not like they are exactly paragons of rationality here.)
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
What does this even mean? How it is not real magic, seems to work just fine. Also the whole god cleric thing is just a tautology. God is one who can create clerics and cleric is one who is powered by a god. And why is being able to create warlock instead of clerics a drawback? they're just as powerful so latter doesn't imply weakness. These are just "it is different because we used different word" type of semantical shenanigans.
A Patron lacks direct control of the warlock. And Warlocks had a rather limited range of magic

Pact Magic also wasn't the same as Normal Spellcasting.

In older editions, you didn't need a god to access lower level cleric spells. So literally anyone can create a cleric.
Yes. Lower level spells.

The great evils could not grant the higher level spells. So there was always a limit of power they could give
 

Remove ads

Top