D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Remathilis]

Regardless, I don't think this line of conversation has anything to do with Sorcerer. Anyone who wants a less magical D&D should not be bringing up their gripes in a thread on Sorcerers unless they have a cool idea for a non-spell reliant Sorcerer (which I WOULD be interested in).

I actually think the two are related: there is a lot of resistance to the idea that characters can just be supernatural without jumping through hoops. The thread started with a dislike that sorcerers do innately what wizards must study to do. That magic should be earned, not part of you. That a warrior earns magic in blood and treasure rather than being part of them. That the idea you are born magical is somehow wrong.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The issue I have is why the supposedly mundane farmboy evolves into a Supernatural being. Every supernatural hero has a reason they are cut above the normal folk: alien species, demigod birth, mutation, raisin, heir to a powerful family of Force users, etc. They don't just wake up after killing their 100th orc and sprout wings. They have a lineage or reason.

So we go back to our fighter and ask why he now has abilities that he couldn't do as a regular person. And then ask two questions:

Why can he do them now?
Why couldn't he do them sooner?

Because this is a magical and mythical world where doing mighty deeds turns you into an epic hero. You don't need to have an explanation like a radioactive god bit you and turned you into a demigod or something. It is just a thing a person in this setting can learn. And this is not particularly novel concept. Most of the Wuxia works this way. Doing wire fu simply is something a once mundane person can eventually learn.

As a final note: I want the farmboy/mundane combatant to disappear. D&D is about epic heroes, and your common soldier is an NPC, not a fighter. Your village priest isn't a cleric, the local apothecary isn't a wizard, the bandit outside town isn't a rogue. Leave mundane stuff for NPCs and let PCs be Big Damn Heroes.

Hard disagree here. I want the characters to be part of the setting, and governed by the same logic than the rest of it. They can be exceptional, but not uniquely so. Furthermore, one of the biggest appeals of to me D&D is "from zero to hero" and if you already start out as hero we cannot have that. There are other games, such as Exalted, where the point is that the characters are super special superheroes from the get go. But I absolutely do not want D&D to be like that.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

can just shrug off dragon fire

This is one of the reasons I've always viewed HP as kind of abstract, and more to do with near misses and luck than actual health.

I don't picture a lvl 10 fighter getting stabbed 20 times and still going. I picture it as 20 glancing cuts and grazes.

Likewise I don't picture it as them just standing in dragonfire like it's a fan-heater blowing warm air. I picture it as them getting singed and mildly burnt as they leap onto the ground to avoid its worst effects.

 

[Mephista]

Regardlessi don't think this line of conversation has anything to do with Sorcerer. Anyone who wants a less magical D&D should not be bringing up their gripes in a thread on Sorcerers unless they have a cool idea for a non-spell reliant Sorcerer (which I WOULD be interested in).

Hot take - that spelless class would be a martial character then. So the caster martial divide would then apply

 

[Minigiant]

Hard disagree here. I want the characters to be part of the setting, and governed by the same logic than the rest of it. They can be exceptional, but not uniquely so. Furthermore, one of the biggest appeals of to me D&D is "from zero to hero" and if you already start out as hero we cannot have that. There are other games, such as Exalted, where the point is that the characters are super special superheroes from the get go. But I absolutely do not want D&D to be like that.

The farmboy warrior should exist but eventually disappear.

It's just that people have to accept that once he gets to level 10, he isn't a farmboy. He is the best swordsman in a moderate sized kingdom or top 3 in an empire.

Same for the sorcerer. They are at level 10 the master of dragon magic and as fiercesome as an adult dragon.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem is D&D doesn't support that style of play for very long. You can get that sort of play when you are hacking orcs and goblins, but when you get to planar does foes, dragons and high level spellcasters, you fall behind. Which leads to three scenarios, and none of them are good:

1. You increasingly rely on magic items and spellcasters to keep up, to the point you're a supernatural character anyway.

2. You spontaneously become supernatural once you hit level 11, which is defeating the purpose of the badass normal.

3. You become less and less effective as magic oversaturates play, and the badass part of your title gives way to just "normal".

So unless the plan is to never play past level 10, you lose that mundane hero element regardless. If that's the case (and D&D is never going to regress to a more level sense of magic in high level play) then rip the bandaid off and let martials do cool things without the crutch of finding them in a chest or waiting 10+ levels.

I'd much rather muck around with options 1 and 2 than re-define what mundane means to suit personal preference, particularly in a game you play with others.

 

[Micah Sweet]

she trained to do it, increasing her strength by lifting incremental weights in a regimen to train her muscles, as is the normal way one typically gets stronger.

or in another way to answer you question 'how is she that strong without magic?': well, it's the same way that massive ancient dragon manages to fly on it's wings without magic too

Not good enough for me. People in my settings don't get to surpass mundane limits without explicit explanation.

 

[Remathilis]

Because this is a magical and mythical world where doing mighty deeds turns you into an epic hero. You don't need to have an explanation like a radioactive god bit you and turned you into a demigod or something. It is just a thing a person in this setting can learn. And this is not particularly novel concept. Most of the Wuxia works this way. Doing wire fu simply is something a once mundane person can eventually learn.


Hard disagree here. I want the characters to be part of the setting, and governed by the same logic than the rest of it. They can be exceptional, but not uniquely so. Furthermore, one of the biggest appeals of to me D&D is "from zero to hero" and if you already start out as hero we cannot have that. There are other games, such as Exalted, where the point is that the characters are super special superheroes from the get go. But I absolutely do not want D&D to be like that.

But the rest of D&D doesn't reflect that. Epic Kings don't cause their kingdoms to feast or famine by their mood. Epic bakers don't create gingerbread golems. Epic farmers don't raise pumpkins big enough to be weapons of war, epic tailors don't make magic clothes spun of pure gold, spider silk and first true love. All that stuff COULD happen, it does in fairy tales and legends, but NPCs aren't given magic for doing epic things that aren't combat related. D&D is finicky when it comes to who gets magic and supernatural power. You don't get to be magical unless you have a reason. That's why sorcerer is even a thing: it's a CLASS dedicated to explaining why you cast magic without studying it. If D&D is a world where mighty deeds can earn magical power, it should have far more people with magical power than it does.

 

[Mephista]

Same for the sorcerer. They are at level 10 the master of dragon magic and as fiercesome as an adult dragon.

I kinda want the sorcerer=dragon thing to to go away. worst class for representing dragons, even back in 3e. You needed a prestige class for tht and turned yiu into a half-caster,

Edit - don't mind the rant. It's dumb to say, I know

 

[Micah Sweet]

The issue I have is why the supposedly mundane farmboy evolves into a Supernatural being. Every supernatural hero has a reason they are cut above the normal folk: alien species, demigod birth, mutation, raisin, heir to a powerful family of Force users, etc. They don't just wake up after killing their 100th orc and sprout wings. They have a lineage or reason.

So we go back to our fighter and ask why he now has abilities that he couldn't do as a regular person. And then ask two questions:

Why can he do them now?
Why couldn't he do them sooner?

I'm not asking in terms of power level: a wizard can throw fire at level 1 so getting access to bigger and more dangerous balls of fire is the purpose of leveling. I'm asking why the absolutely mundane farmboy can fly, survive blasts of dragon breath point blank, or bench press ogres. And why he should wait 10+ levels to do so when his wizard, paladin and barbarian friends are doing that at a far lower level.

As a final note: I want the farmboy/mundane combatant to disappear. D&D is about epic heroes, and your common soldier is an NPC, not a fighter. Your village priest isn't a cleric, the local apothecary isn't a wizard, the bandit outside town isn't a rogue. Leave mundane stuff for NPCs and let PCs be Big Damn Heroes.

I agree with everything except your final note, which I very much disagree with. D&D is only about epic heroes if your table wants it to be, and there's no in-universe difference between PCs and NPCs, so your request makes no sense to me in the setting.