D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Chaosmancer]

I don’t think your subclass argument here is convincing.

Why not? The argument people are making is that the fighter is a mundane class with no supernatural powers whatsoever. Yet it has 5 to 6 supernatural subclasses. How did we justify those subclasses? Because the subclasses themselves supposedly offered justification for their abilities.

Yet we want to add new supernatural/extraordinary/magical abilities and we need to justify why the fighter can do supernatural things at high levels before we are allowed to do so. Why? Did the fighter class need to justify the possibility of fighters being able to learn supernatural abilities before the Arcane Archer was allowed to be a subclass? And if it did so... why do we need to justify it AGAIN.

We demand both current and future abilities not contradict the fluff of what a fighter is/is not.

That’s a lot of leeway. But it doesn’t mean literally anything goes.

Okay. We don't want literally anything. We want superhuman strength, speed, and durability. Possibly a little energy manipulation or directed energy attacks. That is such a measly, small thing compared to "literally anything"

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because I played D&D for 35 years, am still emotionally invested in it, and quite frankly IMO they used to be better than this.

And in my opinion they should be doing better than they are now, and you should stop demanding answers you already received. If it wasn't a good enough answer for you, make your own answers. But you can no longer claim we don't have sound reasoning.

 

[Chaosmancer]

By build up you better mean "reveal his Kryptonian heritage".

That's why this debate never goes anywhere. Because people say they want mundane heroes and then want them doing 10 impossible things before breakfast. But don't call it magic. Don't even say it's supernatural. Fighters just train and make gravity a suggestion because they want it to.

It. Doesn't. Work. Like. That

Either fighters are mundane and nonmagical creatures and are limited by that OR they are magical beings and all bets are off.

This really reveals the folly of trying to cram John McCain and Hercules in the same class. They don't flow from one to another. So pick which one you want.

At level 9 Monks have trained their bodies so that gravity is just a suggestion, and so is sinking in water.

So yes, it does work like that.

At level 13 Wizards have trained and studied math so that gravity is just a suggestion for whomever they feel like, and did the same thing in a more controlled manner at level 5.

So yes, it does work like that.


Your only recourse is to explain how studying the blade is different than studying philosophical martial arts and math. And you are going to have a hard time explaining how studying math is allowed to make you magical but studying the sword and staring death coldly in the eye cannot.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But they don't WANT purely mundane fighters. They want amazingly magical but don't say magic fighters. They want Superman's abilities and Batman's origins. They want all the benefits of spellcasting and none of the finger-waggiling limitations.

So don't tell me you want John McClain or Boromir. You want Wolverine and Hercules wearing John McClain and Boromir's clothes.

John McClain can't punch Satan in the face. Put him in a medieval world, and a few bandits with crossbows are a lethal threat to him. Because that is the medieval equivalent of Gruber and his brother.

Boromir was killed by orcs.

I'm fine with those characters at level 5.

But when I start getting to the point where my enemies are controlling planes of existence and wielding weapons from myth that throw fireballs across the battlefield with every swing... it frankly breaks my suspension of disbelief that Mister Dies to Five Orc Arrows is going to be dueling that enemy in a one on one fight while his buddies work to close the portal. And mister "a single grenade/fireball is extremely lethal to me" isn't even in the running.

Can you imagine Boromir, who struggles to kill one or two orcs in a fair fight, taking on Sauron the Fallen Angel at the height of his Power? What about Aragorn? Aragorn who struggled to take down a troll and and a Wraith, think he could do it?

If you want all your villains to be mastermind thieves with a combat CR of 3 and your BBEG the spirit of a dead king with a CR of 5, be my guest. But once you are fighting beings that can reshape continents, you need more than a spunky attitude and your trusty combat knife.

I'm not saying I hate these characters. I love them. I love the heroic spirit. But either the forces of evil can be one-shot by a bedridden kid with a crossbow, or the heroic spirit needs to change a person to match the levels of force and power of high level DnD enemies. I think it is a far better story that the force of a person's heroism can push their body beyond mere mortal limits than to not have a single villain with more than 30 hp.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Monks harness a supernatural energy called chi. Its right there in the class description.

Ki. And it is in all living things. Ta-da!

Again, unless you think that since the Fighter doesn't specify they can harness adrenaline or dopamine, because they didn't study it, then Ki works for every living being.

There's nothing in the description of either class that says they can.

Why would a class description need to state that training can achieve supernatural results? If you give supernatural results from their training, it is self-explanatory.

Your argument is literally that training is not enough... but it 100% can be. It is a staple of so many myths and fantasy stories. It doesn't need an explanation.

 

[Chaosmancer]

i mean, i think people are referring to McClain and Boromir as more of a reference as of...style rather than scale, yes both would be pretty quickly outmatched if you replicated their capabilities exactly in game but it's the core idea there that people want, people want to be the cool action movie hero who takes out dozens of heavily armed baddies with their wits, their fists and some awesome stunts, the warrior who weilds sword and shield with such skill, protecting their team standing down a hoard of orcs despite being stuck through a dozen times over managing to still fight on.

And I'll never say that that isn't a sweet style that looks and sounds awesome.

But Mephistopheles and his pet Hellfire Dragon aren't going to be shooting arrows into your chainmail. And if you want to nerve punch a giant in the throat, you aren't going to be doing that if all you can reach is his ankle.

 

[Chaosmancer]

What I am saying is Martial can copy many of the wizard abilities. Many magic abilities are "mundane" abilities overcharged and sped up. The martial version would be the slower weaker but repeatable fireballs, charms, healing, and transformations.

They just don't see play as these are shifted to be variant rules, setting relies, and optional rules. If created at all.

If we don't see them in play because they aren't created, then this isn't true. No high level fighter I'm aware of has a repeatable fireball ability, or any charm abilities, or any transformations. Healing, sure, they have a bit of healing, but that doesn't suddenly make your point make sense.

The same with sorcerers.

Sorcerer should have a "Make a spell" chart to suss out the Weave an make a ln emergency spell of their necessity at a higher cost. But this is never made core and only seen in homebrew and 3PP due to bias. Not due to it not making sense.

Something only in 3pp or homebrew rules isn't in the game of 5e DnD.

 

[Remathilis]

i mean, i think people are referring to McClain and Boromir as more of a reference as of...style rather than scale, yes both would be pretty quickly outmatched if you replicated their capabilities exactly in game but it's the core idea there that people want, people want to be the cool action movie hero who takes out dozens of heavily armed baddies with their wits, their fists and some awesome stunts, the warrior who weilds sword and shield with such skill, protecting their team standing down a hoard of orcs despite being stuck through a dozen times over managing to still fight on.

Essentially. To me the badass normal is someone who runs at or near human peak but isn't breaking the reality to do so. He isn't jumping over mountains or bench-pressing freight trains, but he's clearing normal jumps with ease and can reach the limits of what a mortal can lift. As stated, if humanity could be objectively rated 1-10, he's solidly near a 10, but never over.

 

[Remathilis]

As long as it's baked into the class/subclass, sure.

I wouldn't love it as the only option to get those kinds of effects, but I'm ultimately more interested in the effects than the origins.

Edit: and I think folks make mistakes in who they choose as their ideal fantasy exemplar for the class. Batman fights threats that would not be out of place in a high level D&D campaign. John McLain and Boromir do not.

Gear based classes are funny. It's the alchemist problem: if your powers are based on tech, then you should theoretically be able to stockpile your good tech and perhaps give it away to others. I'm sure the barbarian would also love a grappling gun, the rogue would want to chuck your sleep gas bombs, the wizard could learn to use discount flight (save a spell slot!) So, alchemy/artifice/gear ends up being "magic" just refluffed as tech: alchemist bombs that only work for the alchemist x/day, artificer gadgets the mimic spell effects, etc.

I mean, if you're going that route, there isn't much daylight between a grappling gun that allows you to rapidly levitate/spiderclimb and fighter doing that because he's got innate magical abilities to climb. But you do you.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Gear based classes are funny. It's the alchemist problem: if your powers are based on tech, then you should theoretically be able to stockpile your good tech and perhaps give it away to others. I'm sure the barbarian would also love a grappling gun, the rogue would want to chuck your sleep gas bombs, the wizard could learn to use discount flight (save a spell slot!) So, alchemy/artifice/gear ends up being "magic" just refluffed as tech: alchemist bombs that only work for the alchemist x/day, artificer gadgets the mimic spell effects, etc.

I mean, if you're going that route, there isn't much daylight between a grappling gun that allows you to rapidly levitate/spiderclimb and fighter doing that because he's got innate magical abilities to climb. But you do you.

The simplest way to address it is to say your gear is too complicated or customized to transfer to someone else.

And, as I've said, I don't actually care about how the powers are justified.

Specialized gear, exotic energy exposure, magic, unholy birthrights supernatural training, or a simple overabundance of chutzpah is a perfectly cromulent list of potential power sources to me (and not an exhaustive one)

The point is, I'm looking to be able to do the things Batman can do. No one fantasizes about being able to do the things Boromir can do.