D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Mecheon]

Monks harness a supernatural energy called chi. Its right there in the class description.

I know getting into how D&D has handled stuff from out east is an excercise in frustration, but like... I would not say chi is a supernatural energy in the slightest.

Of course this gets into my frustration with "Its either magic or its not" madness we've dragged psionics into and why we really need to flavour wizard/etc stuff as Arcane magic, to make it clear lts distinct

 

[CreamCloud0]

The point is, I'm looking to be able to do the things Batman can do. No one fantasizes about being able to do the things Boromir can do.

i mean, i'll reiterate my point, it's all a matter of perspective, did boromir:
A) die like a chump to a pack of weak orcs not even performing any battlefield techniques.
or did he
B) finally fall against an elite's targeted deathblow after successfully holding the line SOLO against a hoard of above-CR enemies for multiple rounds to let his teammates escape despite taking multiple would-be lethal critical hits(the morgul arrows) and keep fighting.

well, i'd say he did the latter, and even if boromir might only be a level 4 fighter, that's a hell of a thing for a level 4 to be doing, i want my character to do that, i can't imagine what they'll be doing when they're at level 14

 

[Yaarel]

How is it flawed? The concept works out just fine as far as I can see.

As far as I can see, the Weave is ultimately superfluous. By itself it is unhelpful because its methodology (the presence or absence of magical energy) cannot distinguish magic things that are magical but unsuppressible, like dragonbreath. Once an other methodology does make clear and useful distinctions, the Weave is no longer necessary, and only complexifies a simpler criterion.

For example, saying antimagic only suppresses "new" magical events but not "old" persistent magic, is clear and useful. It makes no reference to a "weave" and has no need to. Indeed, because there is "old" magic persisting within the antimagic area, the concept of a void of magic would confusing and ultimately unnecessary.

 

[Yaarel]

I know getting into how D&D has handled stuff from out east is an excercise in frustration, but like... I would not say chi is a supernatural energy in the slightest.

Of course this gets into my frustration with "Its either magic or its not" madness we've dragged psionics into and why we really need to flavour wizard/etc stuff as Arcane magic, to make it clear lts distinct

Ki is roughly the same thing as "soul". (Indeed, in modern Hebrew the term "nefesh" in the sense of lifeforce is a translation for ki.)

In the context of D&D, the "soul" is a sensical source of magic.

Moreover, a soul can have different levels.

The "ki" is the part of a soul that forms a bodily area of lifeforce around a person, corresponding to the Material Plane.

The "spirit" is the part of the soul that is a ghostly influence, relating to self-identity and artistic expression: Ethereal Plane.

The "mind" is the part of the soul that is consciousness itself, the experiencer of thought and ideals of the Astral Plane.

The soul itself is natural and nonmagical, yet is capable of emanating magical effects.

Mysticism is the exploration of the nature of the soul, especially its transcendent aspects of being no-thing-ness.

 

[Yaarel]

Arcane is the magic of science, the mechanical precision and repeatable observations about the magical properties of ordinary objects.

Divine is the magic words, language and symbols, paradigms and ideals.

I am comfortable with saying that Primal and Psionic are the same thing, and that this Primal magic is the magic of the soul: personal expression, desire, will, and intention.

In the context of nature beings, including landscapes, waterways, weather patterns, and sunshine − namely Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, respectively − each distinctive feature of nature exhibits a kind of soul. Water wants to flow, Fire wants to leap. It is a nonhuman soul but is a kind of consciousness.

 

[Yaarel]

In the Primal Magic of the soul:

• Matter: elemental magic
• Ki: body magic, athletic stunts, wuxia, healing, shapeshifting
• Spirit: telekinesis, force, flight, telepathy, charm, domination, illusion, quasi-real phenomena
• Mind: divination, teleportation, spacetime, planar magic, summoning

 

[Gammadoodler]

i mean, i'll reiterate my point, it's all a matter of perspective, did boromir:
A) die like a chump to a pack of weak orcs not even performing any battlefield techniques.
or did he
B) finally fall against an elite's targeted deathblow after successfully holding the line SOLO against a hoard of above-CR enemies for multiple rounds to let his teammates escape despite taking multiple would-be lethal critical hits(the morgul arrows) and keep fighting.

well, i'd say he did the latter, and even if boromir might only be a level 4 fighter, that's a hell of a thing for a level 4 to be doing, i want my character to do that, i can't imagine what they'll be doing when they're at level 14

Fair enough. My perspective certainly differs from yours.

In either case, trying to design high level abilities for a class with the goal of delivering the "dying gloriously at level 4" experience, seems unwise to me.

As would expecting high level characters to function with a similar level of capability to a fantasy character whose most notable achievement is that "glorious" low-level act.

I get the desire to emulate a scrappy, gritty fighter archetype, but if we're looking at higher levels, we should be using exemplars who have shown that they are capable of meaningfully contributing as a direct melee combatant against higher level threats.

John McLain does a bunch of hit and run surprise attack stuff against low level enemies. Boromir fights and dies against them. These are, IMO, bad models to use.

 

[CreamCloud0]

John McLain does a bunch of hit and run surprise attack stuff against low level enemies. Boromir fights and dies against them. These are, IMO, bad models to use.

i agree those parts are bad models to use, but john 'tactically exploits the battlefield to gain advantages' mcclain and boromir 'the one man defensive stand(focusing on that he died is taking away the wrong part of the message)' of gondor aren't level locked concepts and are things to be absorbed into the larger conceptual whole

 

[Remathilis]

Fair enough. My perspective certainly differs from yours.

In either case, trying to design high level abilities for a class with the goal of delivering the "dying gloriously at level 4" experience, seems unwise to me.

As would expecting high level characters to function with a similar level of capability to a fantasy character whose most notable achievement is that "glorious" low-level act.

I get the desire to emulate a scrappy, gritty fighter archetype, but if we're looking at higher levels, we should be using exemplars who have shown that they are capable of meaningfully contributing as a direct melee combatant against higher level threats.

John McLain does a bunch of hit and run surprise attack stuff against low level enemies. Boromir fights and dies against them. These are, IMO, bad models to use.

So, who is a good example of a high level fighter who does extraordinary things and comes from mundane origins (ie no demigods or aliens or the like)? Who is the level 15 fighter emulating?

I ask because most of the best high level fighters (Batman, Captain America, Hercules, etc) get their abilities with a mixture of tech, external power (supersoldier serum) or origin. The purely mundane fighters are basically low level like Boromir and McClain. The closest I can think of is MCU Hawkeye and he admits he's hopelessly outclassed in the Avengers in terms of power.

My brain just doesn't accept the notion that Boromir eventually becomes Hercules if he manages to kill enough Orcs to get past 4th level and beyond. I can't make the jump from "steward of Gondor" to "demigod capable of rerouting rivers" without something setting them apart from normal people.

 

[James Gasik]

So, who is a good example of a high level fighter who does extraordinary things and comes from mundane origins (ie no demigods or aliens or the like)? Who is the level 15 fighter emulating?

I ask because most of the best high level fighters (Batman, Captain America, Hercules, etc) get their abilities with a mixture of tech, external power (supersoldier serum) or origin. The purely mundane fighters are basically low level like Boromir and McClain. The closest I can think of is MCU Hawkeye and he admits he's hopelessly outclassed in the Avengers in terms of power.

My brain just doesn't accept the notion that Boromir eventually becomes Hercules if he manages to kill enough Orcs to get past 4th level and beyond. I can't make the jump from "steward of Gondor" to "demigod capable of rerouting rivers" without something setting them apart from normal people.

I'm sure it's supposed to be Conan. Never mind that he has his own class and he's multiclassed, lol.