D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Crimson Longinus]

So, who is a good example of a high level fighter who does extraordinary things and comes from mundane origins (ie no demigods or aliens or the like)? Who is the level 15 fighter emulating?

I ask because most of the best high level fighters (Batman, Captain America, Hercules, etc) get their abilities with a mixture of tech, external power (supersoldier serum) or origin. The purely mundane fighters are basically low level like Boromir and McClain. The closest I can think of is MCU Hawkeye and he admits he's hopelessly outclassed in the Avengers in terms of power.

My brain just doesn't accept the notion that Boromir eventually becomes Hercules if he manages to kill enough Orcs to get past 4th level and beyond. I can't make the jump from "steward of Gondor" to "demigod capable of rerouting rivers" without something setting them apart from normal people.

Beowulf. Some versions of Arthur and his knights. Tristan for example soloes a dragon. I don’t think such characters are uncommon in mythology. Also most of wuxia.

 

[TwoSix]

So, who is a good example of a high level fighter who does extraordinary things and comes from mundane origins (ie no demigods or aliens or the like)? Who is the level 15 fighter emulating?

I ask because most of the best high level fighters (Batman, Captain America, Hercules, etc) get their abilities with a mixture of tech, external power (supersoldier serum) or origin. The purely mundane fighters are basically low level like Boromir and McClain. The closest I can think of is MCU Hawkeye and he admits he's hopelessly outclassed in the Avengers in terms of power.

My brain just doesn't accept the notion that Boromir eventually becomes Hercules if he manages to kill enough Orcs to get past 4th level and beyond. I can't make the jump from "steward of Gondor" to "demigod capable of rerouting rivers" without something setting them apart from normal people.

I think the "Boromir to Hercules" example is difficult because if you have a 4th level fighter who eventually become a 15th level fighter, he was never Boromir to begin with; he was just baby Hercules (or Hercules still growing into his eventual power, to be more serious).

 

[James Gasik]

Mythological figures become problematic too. Certainly it seems likely that Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Achilles, and Odysseus are all Fighters, yet the D&D Fighter models Odysseus better than the first three.

 

[James Gasik]

Mythological figures become problematic too. Certainly it seems likely that Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Achilles, and Odysseus are all Fighters, yet the D&D Fighter models Odysseus better than the first three.

Well maybe Cu Chulainn is a Barbarian. Warp-spasm and all that. But having your butt kicked being trained by Scathach felt like a more Fighter-y background to me. Don't know why, I mean, surely Barbarians must train to fight, but in my mind I don't equate "martial training" with "GRRRAWRANGRYMAN", who cares if I get hit as long as you die die die!

 

[Remathilis]

Beowulf. Some versions of Arthur and his knights. Tristan for example soloes a dragon. I don’t think such characters are uncommon in mythology. Also most of wuxia.

I think most Wuxia swordmen are closer to monks in terms of ability, particularly with harnessing chi through practice and meditation. Then again, the presence of the monk eats much of the Eastern warrior/mystic design space. I will admit my knowledge of the genre is limited to some general references and a viewing of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon though.

Arthur though has an absolutely nontraditional origin. And he's got several blessings and carries an artifact sword. I still think of him as more the traditional paladin than fighter, but YMMV.

I think the "Boromir to Hercules" example is difficult because if you have a 4th level fighter who eventually become a 15th level fighter, he was never Boromir to begin with; he was just baby Hercules (or Hercules still growing into his eventual power, to be more serious).

That's my point. Hercules doesn't start out a normal man who through trials earns his demigod status, he's born special from the jump and only gets special-er. However, he's saddled with a class that needs to represent both him and specialness AND Boromir and his normalness. And that doesn't really work. The shotgun marriage of everyday swordsman and mythic hero isn't doing either any favors, and my opinion is one of those two should be jettisoned for the good of the other. And in a choice between everyman and demigod, demigod has the better potential.

 

[TwoSix]

That's my point. Hercules doesn't start out a normal man who through trials earns his demigod status, he's born special from the jump and only gets special-er. However, he's saddled with a class that needs to represent both him and specialness AND Boromir and his normalness. And that doesn't really work. The shotgun marriage of everyday swordsman and mythic hero isn't doing either any favors, and my opinion is one of those two should be jettisoned for the good of the other. And in a choice between everyman and demigod, demigod has the better potential.

I don't disagree with any of that. But fighter isn't changing its definition after 50 years, so the only available options are using homebrew OR refining our narrations within our own games.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think most Wuxia swordmen are closer to monks in terms of ability, particularly with harnessing chi through practice and meditation. Then again, the presence of the monk eats much of the Eastern warrior/mystic design space. I will admit my knowledge of the genre is limited to some general references and a viewing of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon though.

Well, some characters are more what I'd call fighters. But that's not even really the point. If learning to do crazy martial stuff no real person can do works for monk, it works for the fighter too.

Arthur though has an absolutely nontraditional origin. And he's got several blessings and carries an artifact sword. I still think of him as more the traditional paladin than fighter, but YMMV.

Eh, those are pretty basic things for a D&D character. And it's not just him. Beowulf, Tristan, Gawain, Odysseus. In the land of legends heroes can just be allowed to do mythic things without having an explanation of having a radioactive god to bit them.

That's my point. Hercules doesn't start out a normal man who through trials earns his demigod status, he's born special from the jump and only gets special-er. However, he's saddled with a class that needs to represent both him and specialness AND Boromir and his normalness. And that doesn't really work. The shotgun marriage of everyday swordsman and mythic hero isn't doing either any favors, and my opinion is one of those two should be jettisoned for the good of the other. And in a choice between everyman and demigod, demigod has the better potential.

It works just fine. The only thing that is an issue that the top levels are not allowed to be as epic as they should. Add a bit more reality breaking there and it is all fine. Then if you want to play only low power heroes, level cap the campaign at ten, if you want to play epic heroes straight out of the gate, start at eleven. And if you want full zero to hero experience, play through all the levels. Easy.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't disagree with any of that. But fighter isn't changing its definition after 50 years, so the only available options are using homebrew OR refining our narrations within our own games.

I agree it's a longshot, but a lot of D&D has moved of late towards a generally more mythic/magical/superhero style of play and I don't think it's out of the realm of possible that the fighter core chassis eventually moves that way as well. Until then, I'll keep beating the drum.

 

[Remathilis]

Well, some characters are more what I'd call fighters. But that's not even really the point. If learning to do crazy martial stuff no real person can do works for monk, it works for the fighter too.

But the Monk explicitly calls out Ki/Spirit as a thing while the fighter does not. If the fighter DID get some inner wellspring of pseudo-mystical powers (ki, spirit, psionics) that powered his abilities, I'd be totally fine with it. But they don't. So if you rewrite the fighter to have ki/spirit as the basis of his power, you can go nuts on the epic stuff. But the monk's gonna feel slighted.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But the Monk explicitly calls out Ki/Spirit as a thing while the fighter does not. If the fighter DID get some inner wellspring of pseudo-mystical powers (ki, spirit, psionics) that powered his abilities, I'd be totally fine with it. But they don't. So if you rewrite the fighter to have ki/spirit as the basis of his power, you can go nuts on the epic stuff. But the monk's gonna feel slighted.

Ok. Fighters cultivate their "warrior spirit." Done. Though I truly do not understand why in a fantasy story we need an explanation for a mythic hero doing epic things.