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D&D 4E One thing I miss from 4e...the Saving Throws
- Thread starter Otterscrubber
- Start date
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Not usually--universally. Every class gets one good and one "not-so-good" save.
Yep.
TheCosmicKid
Hero
I was expecting some sort of regular conceptual split between the "subtle" mental attacks like charms and the "brute force" mental attacks like fear effects. But nope, you save against both with Wisdom. Me, I'd pit charms against Wisdom and fear against Charisma.
Even when it's weird, like with the monk and ranger. An unusual example in 5E of mechanical symmetry overruling in-universe common sense.
CapnZapp
Legend
Sorry but the system is designed to give everyone at least one weak spot.It's tough to have 6 decent saving throws, unless you have a paladin with a high charisma near you
I recommend you to recalibrate your expectations: a score of 10 (+0 modifier) is not weak. It's average.
I suspect what you consider "decent" is "has a good chance of withstanding level-appropriate monster attacks" - but that's not how 5E works.
A character with a good chance of withstanding a Medusa's withering gaze, or the Fireballs of a Flameskull, is a heroic larger-than-life character. He has a defining trait in how wise, dexterious or resilient he is.
In other areas, however, he is less heroic.
And you know what?
That's by design - characters need flaws and weaknesses to become truly interesting (or, more pragmatically, to encourage team play...)
Edit: You really ought to compare saving throw stats with monsters. That's bound to make you feel better: the saves of 5E monsters are generally atrocious.
(Noted exception: dragons with legendary resistance ;-) )
Zardnaar
Legend
The 6 save thing is good in theory but I think they botched the execution. It was late in the playtest when they noticed saves were screwy. I prefer the saves in C&C where there save types are better spread out over the 6 ability scores and you have a floating save of your choice (3 if human).
Yaarel
He-Mage
The biggest problem is Wisdom.
Wisdom conflates both Perception and Will.
Not only are Perception (versus Illusion and versus Hidden) and Will (versus Charm/Fear and versus Psychic damage), each, extremely powerful on their own, they represent mental agility and mental toughness respectively, and have little to do with each other.
Wisdom as insensibly BOTH Perception AND Will, becomes more powerful as a defense than both Intelligence and Charisma put together.
4e resolved this poor definition for Wisdom, and resolved the imbalance of Wisdom, by acknowledging Charisma as personality force to be a kind of mental strength, and a Will defense.
At the same time, 4e used Intelligence for Perception/Search during combat thus anticipating attacks and traps, for the Reflex defense and AC defense.
4e offers a solution for the Wisdom problem.
Wisdom conflates both Perception and Will.
Not only are Perception (versus Illusion and versus Hidden) and Will (versus Charm/Fear and versus Psychic damage), each, extremely powerful on their own, they represent mental agility and mental toughness respectively, and have little to do with each other.
Wisdom as insensibly BOTH Perception AND Will, becomes more powerful as a defense than both Intelligence and Charisma put together.
4e resolved this poor definition for Wisdom, and resolved the imbalance of Wisdom, by acknowledging Charisma as personality force to be a kind of mental strength, and a Will defense.
At the same time, 4e used Intelligence for Perception/Search during combat thus anticipating attacks and traps, for the Reflex defense and AC defense.
4e offers a solution for the Wisdom problem.
Yaarel
He-Mage
On the physical side of the abilities, Dexterity is the problem.
A conspicuous problem with Dexterity is it evolved into a mechanic that has little to do with reallife.
If you look at a reallife acrobat/gymnast, whether male or female, they are strong and buff. Always.
Oppositely, if you look at the body of a reallife renowned archer, sharpshooter, videogame champion, typist, or quilt maker, their physical agility is average. They might be potbellied, in wheelchairs, or so on, and highly unlikely to be able to leap out of the way of a Fireball, or catch themselves from a fall off a balcony.
In reallife, Dexterity has nothing to with athletics.
In formative D&D 1e under Gygax, one of the things it was trying to quantify is the difference between fine motor skills (namely manual Dexterity) versus global physical body, kinesthetic, skills (namely Strength). A person can be extremely strong, but still bad at typing.
A person who swings a sword proficiently in combat requires extreme hand-eye motor skills, balance, positioning, reflex, and so on. But one only needs to make a single Strength check, because swordfighting is wider than a ‘fine’ motor skill, and Strength represents the totality of the physical coordination of the whole body.
The funny thing about giants is, if they are too big, then dealing with all of these puny little creatures does require ‘fine’ motor skills, like typing, and they might lack manual dexterity.
Strength is the go-to ability for anything relating to jumping, climbing, lifting ones own body weight, catching oneself while falling, pulling oneself out of a trap, jumping out of the way of a trap, and so on. Strength is the check that one makes for any kind of Athletics check. Athletes are necessarily strong. Use Strength for any kind of physical stunt.
It seems to me, jumping out of the way of a Fireball, is necessarily a Strength check, using the same kind of kinesthetic athletic skill that swordfighting does. A warrior is much more likely to avoid a Fireball than a typist is. A warrior is much more likely to avoid a Fireball than a lockpick is.
Being a worldclass sharpshooter with slow steady cautious aim, is of little help versus a Fireball explosion.
Use Strength for all Reflex checks that require athletic coordination.
In D&D 1e, the confusion seems to be because of balance. And this confusion snowballed across the editions. The problem is, tightrope walking. Walking across a rope was something that occasionally happened during an adventure, and the DMs had to adjudicated it. It was obvious that tightroping had little to do with physical weightlifting. A bodybuilder was not necessarily good at tightroping. A nonathlete might be good at it. So they gave it to (manual) Dexterity. Since then ‘Balance’ checks have been used for everything ‘acrobatic’, including ‘surfing’ a Fireball explosion. This misuse of Dexterity is an error.
Only a warrior/athlete would be able to theoretically ‘surf’ an explosion. Not a typist.
Moreover, tightrope walking really is a ‘fine’ motor skill, much more focused than a total body athletic check.
Dexterity is manual Dexterity only. It is the fine motion of ones hands and fingers, like knitting. Now, if someone wanted to type on a keyboard using toes instead of fingers, it would still be a Dexterity check because it is a fine motor skill, even tho it isnt strictly ‘manual’ because it uses feet. Similarly, if someone was playing a videogame using ones feet it would be a Dexterity check.
Walking across a rope resembles playing a videogame with ones feet. It is highly focused, and requires small, precise, sensitive motion. So, tightroping really is a Dexterity check, even tho one of the more unusual uses of ‘manual’ Dexterity.
In sum, it seems to me,
• Use Strength for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require the athletics of the entire body.
• Use Dexterity for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require small, sensitive movements.
A conspicuous problem with Dexterity is it evolved into a mechanic that has little to do with reallife.
If you look at a reallife acrobat/gymnast, whether male or female, they are strong and buff. Always.
Oppositely, if you look at the body of a reallife renowned archer, sharpshooter, videogame champion, typist, or quilt maker, their physical agility is average. They might be potbellied, in wheelchairs, or so on, and highly unlikely to be able to leap out of the way of a Fireball, or catch themselves from a fall off a balcony.
In reallife, Dexterity has nothing to with athletics.
In formative D&D 1e under Gygax, one of the things it was trying to quantify is the difference between fine motor skills (namely manual Dexterity) versus global physical body, kinesthetic, skills (namely Strength). A person can be extremely strong, but still bad at typing.
A person who swings a sword proficiently in combat requires extreme hand-eye motor skills, balance, positioning, reflex, and so on. But one only needs to make a single Strength check, because swordfighting is wider than a ‘fine’ motor skill, and Strength represents the totality of the physical coordination of the whole body.
The funny thing about giants is, if they are too big, then dealing with all of these puny little creatures does require ‘fine’ motor skills, like typing, and they might lack manual dexterity.
Strength is the go-to ability for anything relating to jumping, climbing, lifting ones own body weight, catching oneself while falling, pulling oneself out of a trap, jumping out of the way of a trap, and so on. Strength is the check that one makes for any kind of Athletics check. Athletes are necessarily strong. Use Strength for any kind of physical stunt.
It seems to me, jumping out of the way of a Fireball, is necessarily a Strength check, using the same kind of kinesthetic athletic skill that swordfighting does. A warrior is much more likely to avoid a Fireball than a typist is. A warrior is much more likely to avoid a Fireball than a lockpick is.
Being a worldclass sharpshooter with slow steady cautious aim, is of little help versus a Fireball explosion.
Use Strength for all Reflex checks that require athletic coordination.
In D&D 1e, the confusion seems to be because of balance. And this confusion snowballed across the editions. The problem is, tightrope walking. Walking across a rope was something that occasionally happened during an adventure, and the DMs had to adjudicated it. It was obvious that tightroping had little to do with physical weightlifting. A bodybuilder was not necessarily good at tightroping. A nonathlete might be good at it. So they gave it to (manual) Dexterity. Since then ‘Balance’ checks have been used for everything ‘acrobatic’, including ‘surfing’ a Fireball explosion. This misuse of Dexterity is an error.
Only a warrior/athlete would be able to theoretically ‘surf’ an explosion. Not a typist.
Moreover, tightrope walking really is a ‘fine’ motor skill, much more focused than a total body athletic check.
Dexterity is manual Dexterity only. It is the fine motion of ones hands and fingers, like knitting. Now, if someone wanted to type on a keyboard using toes instead of fingers, it would still be a Dexterity check because it is a fine motor skill, even tho it isnt strictly ‘manual’ because it uses feet. Similarly, if someone was playing a videogame using ones feet it would be a Dexterity check.
Walking across a rope resembles playing a videogame with ones feet. It is highly focused, and requires small, precise, sensitive motion. So, tightroping really is a Dexterity check, even tho one of the more unusual uses of ‘manual’ Dexterity.
In sum, it seems to me,
• Use Strength for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require the athletics of the entire body.
• Use Dexterity for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require small, sensitive movements.
CapnZapp
Legend
This complaint is 40 years old by now. I'm certainly too old to have it one more time...
Can you expand on that? I'm curious as to what won you over.
(For the record, I don't have a problem with either system's style.)
Yaarel
He-Mage
Heh. And yet. They complaints about Wisdom have never gone away, have they?
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