OotS 406

[GwydapLlew]

Simply awesome.

For the record, I'm going to have to agree with Voadam. I see Miko walking a thin line, but IMC she'd still be a paladin - granted, she'd also be executed for her actions, but she'd still be a paladin.

Not to continue this line of discussion, but I don't think you can say he's actually "cut in half" based on the drawing, especially with his big paunch and all this stick-figure jobbiness. The *throne* is what Miko did the most damage to.

This lends a bit of credence to the Blackguard thinking. Sunder is, after all, a required feat.

 

[Agent Oracle]

The question I have is what abilities Miko has that let's her put a 14th level aristocrat down in one hit? I mean we're talking about an a person with 14 levels at d8 per level no max dice at first level, probably a -1 con modifier due to age and not having a great constitution to begin with so an average of 59 (average of 14d8-14) hit points and she can smite evil against him so how did she deal 69 damage (enough to put him down to -10) in one hit.

Please, If he's been on the throne for 47 years it's entirely feasable he might not have ascended to power until he was in his late twenties, those two facts alone put him in the third age category for humans (over 70) which imposes a massive -6 con, further dropping his HP. In that case, his HP average PLUMMETS (possibly lower than -42 hp!) almost cutting his HP average in half..

Much like Miko just did.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Come now... If that's the case, then Miko's DM is being an plain and simple.

I think we've all known DMs who've treated their paladins like this in the past, and while to a certain degree moral ambiguity to the decisions a paladin faces is fun and interesting, purposefully screwing over the paladin with a Good/Evil bait-and-switch is just mean and is the sort of situation that prevents players from ever playing a particular class or race ever again.

Who decided Shojo is evil? Not the DM. Not her Detect Evil. Not a preliminary test smite. She did, hubris and egomania a-flyin'. She decided to act like a putz, and so she should lose her powers. Killing someone because you have a paranoid conspiracy theory is under no circumstances a good act. Performing an evil act because you're deluded into believing it's good, does not mean that you are not responsible for the act. That's what Atonement is for. It's for when you screw up. If you honestly meant to do good and accidentally did evil, Atonement will fix up your troubles. There is language in the spell itself about committing evil acts unwittingly, and how it affects the atonement.

 

[Vanuslux]

Declaring all laws of her realm invalid on the spot ("The laws have no meaning!") and electing yourself judge, jury, and executioner so you can kill a defenseless old man in a fit of anger has to be a violation of Lawful Good somehow or anyone with a weak rationalization for their behavior would be Lawful Good.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

For the record I would not remove her paladin status. She honestly, though unreasonably, believes he is evil and I would not make take away powers over a paladin striking against what it thought was evil.

So, if I come home and find someone has killed my cat, I can erroneously kill all my neighbors just because I THOUGHT they did it? Evil actions cause a paladin to lose status, not thoughts. She purposely commits regocide because she refuses to either see or gather facts. This is undoubtedly evil. A thousand tyrants thought they were bettering the world, that does not make them shining examples of goodness.

 

[Klaus]

She's so ex-paladin I think her monk levels are ex-paladin too!

Let's see...

1. A paladin must be of lawful good alignment. Boy, did she go Chaotic here! Lawful would be to summon the magistrates (as Hinjo suggested) and place Shojo under arrest (as Hinjo suggested). Good would be to prepare for the coming evil horde (as Hinjo suggested) and then take care of this matter (as Hinjo suggested). Plus "the laws have no meaning" to her anymore.

2. ...and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Shojo was innocent of her accusations. He may not be Lawful, but he isn't Evil.

3. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority... Based on Hinjo's suggestions, the magistrates would be the legitimate authority. Miko just performed a coup-d'etat. Just because she's the highest ranking paladin doesn't make her the leader. That's a "might makes right" mentality.

4. ...act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)... She attacked a helpless, unarmed venerable man. How's that "honor"?

5. ...help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)... In this case, those in need are the people of Azure City. She should have followed Hinjo's plan of incarcerating Shojo and dealing with the more pressing matter of Xykon's horde.

6. ...and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Clearly, in this case Xykon is more fitting than Shojo.

7. ...a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters... She doesn't even know Belkar is Evil, she never managed to detect him.

8. ...nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. If she thinks Shojo has consitently offended her moral code, she should quit the order and become a wandering paladin. But she's acting on Shojo's words and equating Chaos with Evil.

 

[Savage Wombat]

And let's not forget, Azure City is now doomed thanks to her. I don't think even paladins will fall neatly into line behind the highest-ranking paladin present if that paladin just offed the ruler of the city.

Additional question - does this mean that Hinjo is now the only one who knows the location of the Azure City gate? If he doesn't know, then does anybody?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

To become a Blackguard...

If I recall correctly don't you need ranks in Move Silently? Of course Miko could easily have those from her Monk levels. And peacefull contact with an evil outsider? I wonder if our umbrella weilding friend counts...

Wouldn't she have to know the umbrella guy was an evil outsider?

 

[RedWick]

Shojo's not dead. He hasn't given his dying words speech to Hinjo yet.

 

[paradox42]

1. A paladin must be of lawful good alignment. I think it's safe to assume has been and still is, technically, Lawful Good, though her DM is likely considering changing that in the near future.

Granted. No doubt she is, in fact, still Lawful Good, though rapidly slipping. I as DM in this situation would agree with that.

2. ...and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Thus far, Miko has never willingly commited an evil act. She has acted against good aligned characters, she has commited acts that have unwittingly furthered the evil plans of others, she has acted out of vengeange, anger and hatred, but she has not, technically, done anything evil... yet.

Here is clearly where you and I part company. I just don't see how anybody could think that killing Shojo was not an Evil act- he was a defenseless old man sitting in a chair, and she'd already admitted he didn't Detect as Evil. Regardless of what he'd recently been doing, killing him was Evil. Even if this is Miko's first genuinely Evil act- which I granted you above- she loses her Paladin powers for this, instantly and inarguably.

3. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority... Up until now, she has. Even now, it's highly debatable whether or not has broken this tenet by attacking Shojo. Consider: Shojo was the legitimate authority. Hinjo has refused to step up to take over. Miko is currently the highest ranking Paladin (yes, she outranks Hinjo until he takes Shojo's place). As far as Miko is concerned, with Shojo's loyalty compromised, she is the legitimate authority in Azure City.

Hinjo never refused to take the throne, anywhere in the strip. He did not refuse to make decisions- in fact, his decision was fairly plain. "We have to deal with the big invasion right now- put Shojo aside and we'll deal with it when we don't have the Army of Ultimate Darkness breathing down our necks." Either Shojo was still ruler of the city, in which case she betrayed and murdered him, or Hinjo was the ruler- in which case she disobeyed a direct order from him and thus was not respecting his authority. Miko is not and never was, even as head of the Sapphire Guard, in a position to assume legitimate control of the city. She therefore broke this tenet wide open.

4. ...act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)... She's hasn't done any of the explicit examples in the strip. Some people might consider attacking a defensless old man dishonorable, but that's not what she was doing... She was executing a proven traitor.

Granted- she didn't break this tenet according to the RAW- though as I said, I would personally as DM call this up and call her dishonorable. But that's me.

5. ...help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)... There any real examples of this one way or the other. The closest we come is her agreeing to help the watchtower guards with their supply problem.

This one she's actually fairly consistently been keeping up with, the closest she's come to breaking it is likely when she went to track Belkar down alone.

6. ...and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Such as anyone who sells out Azure City to an Evil Lich and his hobgoblin horde.

Granted- but this doesn't excuse the fact that she clearly committed an Evil act, while also in the process of breaking tenet #3.

7. ...a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters... Like Belkar.

Irrelevant. Belkar isn't even part of the discussion of whether killing Shojo broke the Paladin's Code. Belkar had no involvement other than standing on the sidelines enjoying the show.

8. ...nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. Like Lord Shojo (years of lying, at the very least, high treason at the worst) and the rest of the Order of the Stick (for a myriad of reasons).

Granted. Miko cutting off association with Shojo's government, even helping to bring it down (likely in conjunction with Hinjo, who at least seemed poised to do just that) is what a Paladin should do in this situation. Miko backing the old man up to his throne, roughly shoving him down into it, and then cutting both him and the throne nearly in half... is clearly not.