D&D 3E/3.5 Oozeforged!

[Nyaricus]

I think this guy qualifys for my oddball race thread

 

[Nifft]

Remember before when I said I didn't want to compare to Warforged, though? Warforged are acceptable as LA +0 if necessary for Eberron-specific games, but they are more powerful than just about any LA +1 race out there. Turn the Hobgoblin into LA +0 and put it in a cage with the Warforged and the Warforged mauls it every time.

Same goes for Hobgoblin and Dwarf, though. Hobgoblin is infamous for being underpowered. A Hobgoblin is LA +1 just like a Kobold is LA +0. They are not meant to be serious contenders for a player's choice.

Warforged is a good comparison because it shares traits with the Dralasite. It's also been looked at by a lot of people. The debate is rather split on the subject, but if your logical chain is Dralasite equates to Warforged, and Warforged implies overpowered, then I grant your first point and dispute your second. However, if that's your claim, the argument is really over -- I'm not going to try to convince you that Warforged are balanced. If you see Dralasites being equal (or slightly inferior to) Warforged, then I'm happy that my job is done.

After magic items, though, the Dralasite would possibly gain more ground. The key is that the four arms are going to lead to tons of attacks (exactly twice as many as a human TWFer), so the Dralasite exploits that by

... spending twice as much on his weapons?

I'm still not seeing how you actually plan on getting all these full attacks. It's hard for anyone (besides an archer) to get a full attack vs. someone who doesn't really want them to do so. Even harder for a 20 ft. movement guy.

Could you please go into that?

Maybe we should compare 25-pt buy characters instead of 32. I don't remember saying that 32 was a good place to look. The 'default' assumption is still 25, right?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

If you see Dralasites being equal (or slightly inferior to) Warforged, then I'm happy that my job is done.

I see it more as that they are slightly stronger, but it is very very difficult to compare because the Warforged's absolutely ludicrously overpowered 1st level feat forces all races to compare unfavourably to it until high levels, and I don't feel like making a high level character for comparison (though to be fair, a high-level Dralasite Dervish might be able to do fun things, or a gish/psywar with the Lion's Charge spell.

I'm still not seeing how you actually plan on getting all these full attacks. It's hard for anyone (besides an archer) to get a full attack vs. someone who doesn't really want them to do so. Even harder for a 20 ft. movement guy.

On the other hand, you really only need one singular full attack with this Dralasite that hits on all of them to kill a level-appropriate opponent (well, except for things immune to sneak attack, but then that's because I built it as a Rogue hybrid), so coming in from surprise and winning initiative could do that for you. Anyway, I've heard of games where conditions are like those you mention, and in those kinds of games, you have to get charge feats or the Dervish class eventually to make up for the defecit. On the other hand, I also know someone who plays in a game where not only can they almost-always get off full attacks, they can even have a Combat Expertising fighter who somehow tanks and doesn't have the enemies just ignore her for the squishies (which would never work in my games), so I guess you never know.

Maybe we should compare 25-pt buy characters instead of 32. I don't remember saying that 32 was a good place to look. The 'default' assumption is still 25, right?

I don't think that would be such a good idea. The only people I know who actually play 25 PB are enough of low-power nazis (they don't call themselves that, of course--they call 28 PB high-powered and won't listen when you mathematically prove that 4d6 drop lowest will result in higher than 28 on average) that they are unfortunately likely never to allow this race to begin with.

 

[Nifft]

I don't feel like making a high level character for comparison [... ]
Anyway, I've heard of games where conditions are like those you mention, and in those kinds of games, you have to get charge feats or the Dervish class eventually to make up for the defecit. [...] I don't think that would be such a good idea. The only people I know who actually play 25 PB are enough of low-power nazis

Wow, you've got a really strict set of conditions for even thinking about something! I don't see that we can have a meaningful conversation if you keep popping limits on it.

- 32 point buy, but
- only core races & classes, except
- Dervish and Psionics, when they fit your argument.


Let me re-iterate: the basis for the creation and balance of this race are:
+ Aberrant feats from Lords of Maddness, and
+ Warforged from Eberron Campaign Setting.

That's why I keep bringing those two up. They're the rules I used as my starting point. You can contest that they are unbalanced if you'd like, but dismissing them is rather silly. If you don't see why, I'm not sure this conversation will be fruitful.


Thanks, -- N

PS: Thanks for your help. I do honestly mean that. I just don't see how we can continue to talk if you try to dismiss my points.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, I would have stuck to core races and classes happily and did so initially (I don't want this to have to become a charop escalation is all), but you pulled in the other stuff, including mentioning psywar yourself, so I thought that meant I should too? For the Aberrant feats, I guess the Dralasite can take those too--or become a Totemist to get extra attacks.

That said, I think using Warforged as a basis for starting to balance a race is both a mistake and a tragedy (perhaps a bit of an overstatement to call it a tragedy, but the tone fits for the way I think of it, perhaps 'sadness' would be a better word?) that is perhaps the most insidious effect of allowing races like Warforged and the Whisper Gnome out there--the two races themselves are easy enough to fix or just bump up in LA unless you want them to be standard fixtures for the world (the reason designers gave for making a blatantly LA +1 race like the Warforged LA +0 in Eberron, which I will buy when I GM Eberron games), but it leads designers of new races astray when used as a baseline. Back when it was only the dwarves that were oddly overpowered, it was easy to dismiss them as an anomaly, but with the others that are even more powerful, you see people saying in any attempt to use the other races as a baseline: "Oh the elves are just an underpowered race. I don't need to balance the new race with them" "What about the halflings?" "Also underpowered." "The gnomes?" "Underpowered too. And don't even ask about half-elves and half-orcs."

EDIT: I'm not saying you would say that in this case, but I remember someone on these boards who did. He came in last year with an "LA +0" race that had regeneration and other crazy powers and then used arguments like the ones I'm making.

 

[Notmousse]

A few things I've noticed after reading the OP. If any/all of these have already been addressed my apologies.

1: It takes entirely too long to extrude or absorb a psuedopod.
2: If they are stuck being used as 'arms' and 'legs' then they're not psuedopods are they?
3: There is no mechanic to swap a psuedopod's function from 'arm' to 'leg' or vice versa short of absorbtion and extrusion.
4: If they are meant to be 'half-ooze' then we need a PrC to bring out their Ooze nature further.
5: There are no ways to make a different kind of Ooze type than the normal acidic kinds (GelCubes, Puddings, etc...) without any regard to the others (snowflake ooze for example).
6: While there are rules regarding extra limbs it does not take into account what would happen were one of these to 'sport' less limbs, or why they wake with 2 of each.
7: Again the lack of a classic psuedopod use, that of tentable.
8: Do they have vitals organs? If no then why are they subject to critical hits and precision damage?
9: Why are the attribute modifiers not even? Is this as a counterbalance to their other abilities, or for another reason?

 

[Sadrik]

I think these guys are cool and it brings up memories of playing star frontiers.
I have a couple of suggestions:
*Have fortification start out at light and have two feats to improve it (medium fort and heavy fort).
*Give them the slippery mind ability for the oozy mind ability
*Change the different oozy body stuff to excretions so slippery excretion for oozy body and corrosive excretion for improved oozy body
*for oozy metabolism dirt should not be considered organic matter.
* Dralasites should have access to DR as a feat somehow, since their bodies are made out of "rubber" and their internal organs are deep inside of them. Maybe DR/1 for a feat and take it up to three times.
*If I remember right they could not see as well as a human.
*They generally wore a "harness" and didnt realy fit into clothes. I might do some warforged feats that gave them an armor bonus. And include that they flat out cannot wear armor other than specially made light armor.
*Also a feat that could make themselves size small would be cool- small form- or something.
*Oh yeah, they also had problems breathing in water because they used their entire bodies as their lung. They breathed through their skin. This could be an area for a penalty if you wanted to add one.

Sadrik

 

[Nifft]

EDIT: I'm not saying you would say that in this case, but I remember someone on these boards who did.

Okay, now that you recognize I'm not him, can you stop putting words in my mouth, please? I went with Dwarf because it *is* the high end. I offered to out-damage a variety of foes on a level-by-level basis (you with Dralasite, me with Dwarf). That offer still stands, by the way.


If you think Dwarves are overpowered (and that's the sense that I got from your last post), then let's drop them. For the record, I think Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are underpowered, and Elves need some kind of bonus in the case that they are already proficient (or later become proficient) with longswords, rapiers and bows, but otherwise, the rest are just about right.

Let's look at a Halfling or a Human. You can beat those, right?

The foes will be:
- two wolves and two goblins
- a Necromancer and his four skeletal minions
- a grick
- a pixie
- a CR 4 trap

32 point buy is fine.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Nifft]

For the Aberrant feats, I guess the Dralasite can take those too--or become a Totemist to get extra attacks.

Ah, well that's a misunderstanding then. Aberrant feats require that you be Humanoid -- the Dralasite is clearly not qualified.

Don't know about Totemist, but I'll look into it when I get that book. I seem to recall some builds on the optimization forum featuring the Totemist, so I'll assume it's a Tier-1 cheesy class. If you post what it can do, I'll be happy to consider it.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

If the build involves Rogue, the Dralasite would do better in a party group for flanking (same goes for the halfling of course), but I am confident that a Dralasite can outdamage a halfling regardless by just avoiding Rogue since its a soloing contest. The big question is, will it be okay to say they advance and attack on subsequent rounds with full attacks, or are you going to have them all moving around with spring attacks so that nobody can get in the full attack? Also, what level are we looking at? Looks like perhaps level 4 would be good for those opponents.