Opening Shove, New Warlord at Will

[Plane Sailing]

I can see it as being useful, but once again it grates against my sensibilities that he could "Opening Shove" a giant or colossal dragon (but not a dwarf).

 

[Stogoe]

It's not a physical push - or at least, it doesn't have to be. Why not imagine it as an attack that forces the dragon to back up to avoid it (thereby giving an ally the opening)?

 

[Ibixat]

I can see it as being useful, but once again it grates against my sensibilities that he could "Opening Shove" a giant or colossal dragon (but not a dwarf).

Does it annoy you more that my rogue can positioning strike or bait and switch and either slide the dragon or giant 3 squares or trade places with the dragon or giant, then shift myself 3 more squares.

At 13 I can tornado strike too, which will let me hit and slide 2 different targets 5 squares each (well 5 squares at 13 by the time I get the power)

 

[Mengu]

It's got some interesting uses.

Monster with reach attacks and knocks down or immobilizes your fighter, you opening shove the fighter toward the monster, and give the rogue a shift to get in position. On their turns, they are both ready to rock and roll.

It's the surprise round and your fighter and barbarian are a smidge too far from the enemy to charge? Shove one, shift the other, and they are set.

Fighting a monster with an aura 1? Hold action till after the monster, shove it away from one ally, shift another ally away from it, and you can keep your allies safe from starting their turns adjacent to the enemy with the aura.

It definitely makes a great third at-will for a human tactical warlord. It's usefulness will also depend on whether there is a strong melee basic attack in the party or not.

 

[Cadfan]

The same thing applies even if the fighter gets a turn. Does the +2 help? It might. But the difference is, for all practical purpose, 0 damage. If the fighter hits, he does 25 more damage. If he misses, he does 0. He needs to give a bonus that is about equal to the damage that a party member would do in order to be a valuable member of the group.

Technically, if the fighter got a turn, I'd say that the +2 helped to the extent that increased accuracy increases the fighter's expected damage per round. So if the fighter was hitting 50% of the time, and now he's hitting 60% of the time, the bard "dealt damage" equal to 20% of the fighter's original expected damage on a hit. This is why standard actions that only give bonuses to one ally are usually a bad idea (because you could have attacked with it instead, and that would have been better unless the fighter's damage is five times better than yours), but standard actions that give bonuses to all your allies over a period of time are often very good ideas- a 20% increase in expected damage for the whole party for several rounds is likely much, much more than you could possibly have accomplished with a single attack.

I can see it as being useful, but once again it grates against my sensibilities that he could "Opening Shove" a giant or colossal dragon (but not a dwarf).

That's never bothered me, because, from the perspective of a dragon or a giant, he's been pushed a very, very small distance. If someone who came up to my knees pushed me as hard as they could, I might stumble 6 inches back. Proportionally, that's a space. from the perspective of the 18 inch tall person.

 

[Nail]

I can see it as being useful, but once again it grates against my sensibilities that he could "Opening Shove" a giant or colossal dragon (but not a dwarf).

Does it annoy you more that my rogue can positioning strike or bait and switch and either slide the dragon or giant 3 squares or trade places with the dragon or giant, then shift myself 3 more squares.

That's never bothered me, because, from the perspective of a dragon or a giant, he's been pushed a very, very small distance.

Generally I'm of the "Hypersmurf" persuasion on this issue. The power has an effect (in this case, a push)....but how you choose to describe the effect (attack causes dragon to stumble back a bit) is entirely up to you, and doesn't affect the mechanics at all.

 

[garyh]

I like the power. Battlefield position control is my favorite part of the warlord, and this just adds to it.

 

[Michele Carter]

Yep, my eladrin warlord swapped out commander's strike for opening shove. More tactically interesting. In fact, about half her powers now are out of Martial Power; it's really expanded the range of warlord options.

 

[Patlin]

It's the surprise round and your fighter and barbarian are a smidge too far from the enemy to charge? Shove one, shift the other, and they are set.

I don't have my book handy, so maybe I'm wrong, but I have the idea that in order to get the effect from an attack you have to attack an enemy (and one who is a credible threat, too.) I think it's perfectly fair to use opening shove on your ally to push him or her, but I don't think you can use the shift in that case.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Does it annoy you more that my rogue can positioning strike or bait and switch and either slide the dragon or giant 3 squares or trade places with the dragon or giant, then shift myself 3 more squares.

At 13 I can tornado strike too, which will let me hit and slide 2 different targets 5 squares each (well 5 squares at 13 by the time I get the power)

But not a dwarf.

(since you missed the key point of my statement)

And FWIW I have much less problem with attacks vs Will which move targets than attacks vs Fort/Ref/AC

Cheers