Opinion: PoL and high tiers do not fit in the long run

[Fenes]

Epic level characters enter the planes and try to stop demon hordes being released into the abyss. They try finding a lost god that can help them against Asmodeus recent plans to escape the hells. But they don't have the time to notice a Yuan-Ti king assembling the various tribes of his race to begin starting a war against a friendly kingdom. And the village that was raided and burned down by an orc army was even further from their view...

Only if said Epic level characters did not spend any thought to build up structures, lines of communications, and trained people - something many epic level characters would have done, or would have in place. I think it's rather limiting to assume that brother Faro, hero of the church of Tyr, spent 20 levels battling monsters, and never helped his chruch build up numbes, trained fellow clerics to the point of them being able to contact him in an emergency, etc.

On the contrary - if there are epic level characters with ties to such villages, why wouldn't they keep an eye on it, and swing by and eradicate the orc horde in 1,5 rounds if needed? Or at least make sure there are defenses around to handle orc hordes?

Or are NPCs the only ones who can build stuff like mythals, guardian golems, lasting academies and churches, fortresses, fighting schools, etc.?

Unless your heroes are busy fighting enemies 24/7, and never get any rest, odds are they will be able to train followers, and equip them. And that means the next generation of heroes won't all have to start as ignorant peasants in a doomed village, but may be able to start armed with the experience and gear of epic level heroes, and their legacy to live up to.

 

[BeauNiddle]

The hero's get to level 30 and start an empire.

Their descendents have an easier time of it since all the challenges have been squashed and only have to level to 25.

Their descendents have an even easier time of it and only get to level 20

Their descendents only get to level 15 and don't have the strength to deal with the enemies at the borders so they ignore them turning the empire in on itself

Their descendents get to level 10, do a deal with asmodeus to be as powerful as their legendary forebears.

Now there's another evil empire run by powerful forces that act as a tyranny on the world. Either Hero's rise who destroy it and have to rebuild from the ashes or it collapses under it's own evil weight and generations later you have PoL again.


Things to remember - the gods weren't powerful enough to kill the Titans, they're only imprisoned. The god's weren't powerful enough to deal with asmodeus The gods weren't powerful enough to deal with the maelstrom of evil created by the Elder Eye. Gods can die.

When characters hit level 30 and become gods what reason do you have to believe they can manage what the other gods couldn't.

Every time the good guys make the world better for good people then they make it harder for good people to face appropriate challenges (so they don't level as fast) and they make it easier for bad guys to face appropriate challenges (so they level faster)


All PoL's mean is IF the hero's set out to start a world spanning empire then the next game will have to be 3 or 4 generations later and not the next immediate generation.

 

[Fenes]

The view that just because a new hero starts in a secure Empire, and not in an isolated village, makes him weaker in the long run is false. There are still challenges out there, enough of them to level up as fast as the former generation. Just the "home front" is less concerned with wilderness troubles, and more with "civilisation ails", such as thieves, assassins, intrigue, feuds, and so on.

"Points of lights" just seems too simple for me, too focused on external threats, on "dungeon style". I prefer a more flexible game, where civilisation is not reduced to a few points of light, but offers challenges of its own.

Time will tell if 4E will deliver that as well, or if we're faced with an edition that, even more than earlier editions, just wants characters to kick the doors of dungeon rooms in and start hacking. The "social challenge" mentioned gives me hope, but the whole "point of lights" stance and the inherent turning away from big countries and empires, and all the nice adventures and challenges those offer, disheartens me.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Actually the Lord of the Rings offers a great example of how PoL works as a campaign setting.

In the begining there is only darkness. The elves make small points of light when they appear and the evil god Melkor attackes them, tricking them into thinking it is Orome's fault.

(Campaign: Begin in village, have adventures, retire at level 30 in Valinor)

The elves do wondrous things in Valinor and eventually through his agents Melkor is both freed from his prison and destroys the Light - plunging the world into Darkness. The Noldor go back to Middle Earth to overthrow Melkor and reclaim the Silmarils.

(Campaign: Begin in a village, have adventures (maybe even encounter Sauron, or Ungoliant). The heroes either retire to Valinor or are involved in founding Numenor.)

Numenor rises and forms an Empire (of which Gondor is a part). The Rings of Power are forged and Sauron forges the One Ring, Hollin and Moria are cast down/into evil in war with Sauron. Sauron eventually appears (in fair guise) and corrupts the kings of Numenor, and causes it to fall when they attempt to sail to (and attack) Valinor.

(Evil Campaign: The PCs work for Sauron to help him undo all the good of their last Campaign. The PCs retire to Mordor or Middle Earth...possibly becoming the Nazgul later due to their Magic Rings (Epic Destiny for Evil guys..sometimes being immortal is a bad thing) )

Mordor rises as an Evil power against the failing light of Numenor (now only the domains of Gondor). The Last Alliance of Elves and Men is crafted and the remnants of Numenor and the Elves assault Mordor and Sauron is defeated, but not destroyed.

(Campaign: The PCs start in a village and eventually become involved in the War, and do things like fight and drive off their now Nazgul former PCs. The PCs retire to important positions in the now safe Gondolin or one of the Elven nations (or if elves go to Valinor).)

The One Ring is lost. For many hundreds of years nothing bad really happens. Eventually the Necromancer rises in Mirkwood, and evil things bestire in the land. Eventually White Council attacks the Necromancer's fortress of Dol Goldur, but he flees before them rather than be killed, for he (being Sauron) knows the One Ring still exists and he hopes to be re-united with it.

(Campaign: PCs might live among the men that are moving into the Misty Mountains, spend time fighting goblins and such until eventually they are involved in either the Battle of Five Armies, or the assault on the Necromancer. Either way they retire into positions of importance. Campaign ends in high Paragon low Epic Tier depending on the Epic Destinies available.)

Roughly 80 years pass in which nothing happens of note. In the following 20 years Sauron returns to Mordor and begins gathering his forces. Roughly 100 years after fleeing Mirkwood he learns the location of the One Ring and sends the Nazgul to retrieve it. Around this time Gandalf determines the nature of Bilbo/Frodo's Ring, and Saruman and Denethor are corrupted through their Palantirs. Eventually the Sword that was Broken is reforged, Aargorn defeats the army of Sauron that besieges Minas Tirith, the Witch King is killed by Eowyn. Aragorn leads his army to the Gates of Mordor, and while the battle rages Gollum, driven by Frodo's curse falls into Mount Doom and the One Ring is destroyed.

(Campaign: The PCs would probably be from Rohan, making them involved the stopping the pillaging of the Westfold, the Battle of Helm's Deep, the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and finally the battle at the gates of Mordor, they might kill a Nazgul before Gollum dies with the Ring. PCs retire as heroes of Gondor/Rohan to positions of power.)

Its only significantly after this in the latter days of Aragorn's reign (which last's hundreds of years) that "Middle Earth" is really not a PoL setting, and even it has an "End of Days" scenario with the return of Melkor and his resurection of Sauron and so on.

That still takes at least 6 Campaigns, some of them would be "Legacy" campaigns some would just be seperate campaigns. That's a lot of mileage and thats for a far more coherent setting than the PoL setting - there is a lot less grey in Middle Earth than what we know of PoL.

A more "DnD" campaign to look at is the Savage Tide campaign from Dungeon - it even ends with the possibility of a PC achieving an Epic Destiny. Currently the Campaign is spaced over 20 levels but it wouldn't be hard to adjust it to go over 30 levels really.

 

[xechnao]

Quite frankly, I don't see how the power available to epic characters and monsters can result in anything other dynamic points of light. Power rests in the hands of legendary individuals and small groups, and can't really be transfered to social institutions. Therefore, as those individuals go, so goes everyone else. Characters with incredible power aren't really condusive to stable societies, IMO. Especially obtaining that power generally involves an incredibly violent lifestyle. Even heroic characters can often be pretty flawed - and the more desparate the situation, the more likely that anyone who can win becomes the hero of [subject hometown]. And a dynamic PoL situation is pretty desparate. Just because someone is heroic enough to oppose forces that would wipe out the world, a city, a town, a whatever doesn't necessary make them nice people.

To abuse a modern analogy, if nuclear weapons were in the hands of small groups or individuals instead of large organizations who employ numerous failsafes to prevent unauthorized use, do you think they wouldn't get used? Epic characters with godlike power seems more like a reason that PoL sticks around than a reason it would end. Even without power corrupting, it's generally easier to break things than to build them.

So you see epic characters as a kind of terrorists?
Because other than that I can't agree with or accept what you or some other people are saying. No society or race would have ignored a dnagerous or threatening world and wouldn't have rushed to secure its safety.

Well, I don't know how much I can help you here, since I'd guess that this edition of DnD doesn't have the central meaning or historical dynamic that you seem to be wanting.

The dragon thing isn't a theory, for instance, it is a specific repeating phenomena.

Dragons and adventurers don't exist to keep each other in check, it's just that they are two powerful actors who can act on each other or their interests and that they both can have a certain stake in the 'light' phenomena that also affects the world.

Hmm, I find it rather much more interesting to base the PoL ecology on a benefit/abuse relationship among humans and dragons (or another magical race that should provide magic to humans) than needs to be kept in check. Something like Earthsea only with more active and menacing dragons -. Orcs and other monsters could have been products of the use of magic in such an ecology. The PCs are the adventurers who help to clean up this kind of mess for humanity's sake and perhaps at later levels being among the ones that negotiate -either peacefully or violently- with the dragons.

...Good and Evil are, however, present across this great struggle and symphony.

Ok, I have read through and I think that I understand this struggling and symphonic cosmology. Yes, it is viable. But it is just over the top for my taste. It is just too complicated. Certainly alignment and the great wheel was not better for my taste but yet this is not such a tasteful improvement either -always speaking personally.

 

[KrazyHades]

My point is that this does not make sense. Time along, surge after surge of rising epic heroes these ancient-evils will eventually fall and PoL will be no more.

What about the surge after surge of rising epic villains? For each person willing to risk life and limb to fight evil and get treasure, there must be many more people who go out to take power and treasure without regard to others.

Of course, that's just a possible explanation...at least right now I'm in agreement with you. Tribe of orcs marauding? POW, they're gone. I don't think they'd be around for long once PCs reach high level.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Only if said Epic level characters did not spend any thought to build up structures, lines of communications, and trained people - something many epic level characters would have done, or would have in place.

When? After they defeated the lich king, but before the Devil that helped him advancing his power "escapes" back into the nine hells, and the PCs need to follow him to stop the Doom Asmodeus seems to try bringing down on the world?

Who is to say that these structures don't fail eventually? If the PCs got face the advesary of a "points of light" world, who is to say that evil NPCs can't survive in a "points of darkness" world and bring them down to gain all the power for themself?

The campaign might temporary not be a Points of Light setting, but if you want, you can always choose to bring it back to that state. But who cares if you don't do it? The Points of Lights was the starting point of your world, maybe even your "gaming career", you can do everything you want with it...

 

[Hussar]

Only if said Epic level characters did not spend any thought to build up structures, lines of communications, and trained people - something many epic level characters would have done, or would have in place. I think it's rather limiting to assume that brother Faro, hero of the church of Tyr, spent 20 levels battling monsters, and never helped his chruch build up numbes, trained fellow clerics to the point of them being able to contact him in an emergency, etc.

On the contrary - if there are epic level characters with ties to such villages, why wouldn't they keep an eye on it, and swing by and eradicate the orc horde in 1,5 rounds if needed? Or at least make sure there are defenses around to handle orc hordes?

Or are NPCs the only ones who can build stuff like mythals, guardian golems, lasting academies and churches, fortresses, fighting schools, etc.?

Unless your heroes are busy fighting enemies 24/7, and never get any rest, odds are they will be able to train followers, and equip them. And that means the next generation of heroes won't all have to start as ignorant peasants in a doomed village, but may be able to start armed with the experience and gear of epic level heroes, and their legacy to live up to.

And I think I addressed this earlier in my 5 campaigns post.

In the first campaign, the PC's carve out a nice little empire. However, they will not pacify an entire WORLD. There just isn't enough time for that. They die of old age before they can do that. So, they build a nice empire, say the size of China.

However, even within that empire, there's still PoL. It might be brighter than outside the empire, but, there's still some shady places. So, our second generation goes and deals with the little stuff that got left behind the first time around and secures the empire. Once they move on to Epic levels, they extend the borders of the empire. They now control an entire continent.

Then the 3rd campaign starts. Taking a page from the excellent ideas of Steven Erikson's Malazan series, our empire is now challenged from without. A neighbouring empire of demon worshipping fanatics decends upon our fledgeling empire with a vengeance. The PC's start out by battling first the leading edge of the invaders, then working their way up the food chain, they stop the invasion and push them back. Empire is restored.

Well, there's 3 nice solid campaigns. What else do you want from a setting?

Or, you can go the other way and say that every time your PC's hit those kinds of levels, you go to a new setting. Fantastic too. I'm all for that.

Either way, you're golden.

The idea that once a given party hits 30th level, they will be able to pacify an entire world is one I disagree with. But, hey, whatever floats your boat. If that's the way the campaign plays out, then simply move over to a new campaign world. You killed this setting's Asmodeus? Great. Now try this setting's Boris.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Maybe this is more a sign of differing game views. For some, high level means not just taking on bigger bags of HP, but shaping the land and society, training apprentices, men at arms, forming alliances, and dynasties. This may date back to 1E with the "9th level, time to start building the keep" view.

Others see heroes as mainly opposing/taking on foes, and less of builders.

Definately differing gaming styles.

One camp (the camp I am in) says that high level characters are heroes because of what they have done and receive the benefits of that heroism in ways beyond merely leveling up and collecting more powers. In this style the characters gain titles, lands, alliances, lead cabals/knighthoods/mercenary armies, become prominant within their faiths, etc. In other words they impact the world in believable ways.

In another style of play the PCs accumulate levels so they can assault the next dungeon which just happens to be just right for a band of 23rd level adventurers. This style of gaming makes hero a mechanical descriptor as opposed to the actual impact of the character on the setting. They build nothing and live in a weird episodic world where one thing doesn't actually connect to the next and the setting never really responds to them except by sending them more things to kill. The only goal for a PC in this style of game is achieving the next level and its powers, abilities and feats. IMO, if one plays with minis, this is equivalent to D&D as Monopoly. Hit 30th (or epic) level and you win the game.

In 3e WoTC really demonstrated the latter style with the idea of epic level dungeons and an epic level city (Union) with 20+level town guards LOL. In other words boring, unimaginative, the same ol' stuff but with some flashier effects.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Fenes]

When? After they defeated the lich king, but before the Devil that helped him advancing his power "escapes" back into the nine hells, and the PCs need to follow him to stop the Doom Asmodeus seems to try bringing down on the world?

Who is to say that these structures don't fail eventually? If the PCs got face the advesary of a "points of light" world, who is to say that evil NPCs can't survive in a "points of darkness" world and bring them down to gain all the power for themself?

The campaign might temporary not be a Points of Light setting, but if you want, you can always choose to bring it back to that state. But who cares if you don't do it? The Points of Lights was the starting point of your world, maybe even your "gaming career", you can do everything you want with it...

I don't see any need for me to play or run a point of light campaign since the basic concept does nothing for me. My world is not PoL, it's a world with many powers, groups, and nations, viewing for power on all levels, from the ballroom to the sewers.

I find the PoL setting runs counter to my taste - I want civilisations to play in, not a few PoLs. I can always have borderlands, and deep underground ruins, and hiden valleys, and whatever else I need for wilderness adventures, in my world. But I don't want to sacrifice my campaign world for a big darkness full of combat encounters.