Orange Ioun Stones

[Arc]

I'm almost positive I've seen this brought up before, but since I can't find the thread, I suppose I'll ask:

Orange Ioun Stones provide "+1 Caster Level", which is an unnamed bonus, and non specific as to whether it's +1 caster level for just one class, or for all applicable casting classes (think Mystic Theurge here). My gut instinct says that they shouldn't stack (multiple bonuses from a single source, and all that), but a few builds over on the WotC Optimization boards have used them in stacking, and haven't really raised complaint.

So, what's the ruling on these things?

 

[Cheiromancer]

One of the designers apparently said they stacked. I wish I could be more specific as to who, where and when, but I can't.

For what it's worth, I agree with you; multiple copies shouldn't stack. I would let them add to whatever class you are using at the moment, though. So it would be mystic theurgy in its goodness.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I'd let a character have multiple such stones, but each one would have to be affecting a different spellcasting class in which they have a level.

 

[Arc]

One of the designers apparently said they stacked. I wish I could be more specific as to who, where and when, but I can't.

For what it's worth, I agree with you; multiple copies shouldn't stack. I would let them add to whatever class you are using at the moment, though. So it would be mystic theurgy in its goodness.

Nobody happens to have a quote of this statement, would they? That would be peachy.

The trick I'm having with the "Caster Level +1" bit applying to one/all classes is that I'm building an Ur-Priest / Sublime Chord (it's a powergamed build, I know). So adding 1 to all classes effectively boosts some of them by more than 1.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I can't find it. Maybe I was hallucinating? But you do know that an effect which increases caster level won't affect class level, right?

And the sublime chord says

A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class.

An orange ioun stone will increase your caster level, but not a class level. So you can't count it twice.

Anyways.... the wording for an orange ioun stone is the same from a prestige class. It does not say "bonus"- it just says "+1 caster level." And the "+1 caster level" from prestige classes stack, even if from the same prestige class. So orange ioun stones should work the same way.

Even if you decide it is a bonus, the rule that bonuses from the same source do not stack applies only to spells, not to magic items (or prestige classes). It is a named exception to the general rule that unnamed bonuses stack. If they hadn't wanted the orange ioun stones to stack, they would have named the bonus. But of course it isn't a bonus, it is just +1 caster level.

The broken combo with Blasphemy and multiple orange ioun stones is a problem with Blasphemy, not the orange ioun stones.

I don't really believe all this, but that's how I would argue it.

But even I can't argue that an effect that increases your class level will also increase your class level, which is what I think you want Sublime Chord to do.

 

[Arc]

I know the problem with Sublime Chord and class level vs caster level, but Ur-Priest uses caster level as the determinant for its caster level. So, if I have Bard, Sublime Chord, and Ur-Priest levels, each orange ioun stone theoretically increases my Ur-Priest CL by TWO. (1 Bard CL + 1 Sublime Chord CL)/2 + 1 = 2 Ur-Priest CL. Add another spellcasting class or (1 level of sorceror, or wu-jen, or anything, and that increase continues to get larger with each ioun stone. The multiple effects from a single source argument is what I'm going to be arguing, actually, I was just looking for backup on it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ur-Priest reads (CA 70)

To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes....

Again, it's a class level vs spellcasting level distinction.

 

[Arc]

Ur-Priest is in Complete Divine, but yes, you're right about the quote. I distinctly remember it being different in the BoVD though, but after checking, it seems to be the same. Well, it seems like the build doesn't work quite as well as planned, and that the fellows over at the WotC Character Optimization boards are playing a little fast and loose with the rules. Still, it was worth a shot.

 

[TDRandall]

Well, not that my word is official at all, but I'm definitely of the camp that it should be played as:

"What is the level without the stone?" "Now add one"

Otherwise it seems to be breaking the intent of the item/spirit of the law(rule) with the letter of the law. I can't see a game designer intentionally saying "I want this item to give +1 to Wizards and Sorcerers, but a +2 to a Mystic Theurge, oooohh yeah and a +3 to a prestige class of X combination, and ..... etc."

 

[Cheiromancer]

Well, not that my word is official at all, but I'm definitely of the camp that it should be played as:

"What is the level without the stone?" "Now add one"

Otherwise it seems to be breaking the intent of the item/spirit of the law(rule) with the letter of the law.

I agree on all counts except the last. I don't think there is another interpretation that *is* in accord with the letter of the law.