ORCUS! EXCLUSIVE! ESCAPIST!

The Escapist has an awesome preview of Orcus himself! And by preview, I mean the stats -- along with some background features for Out of the Abyss. He's a CR 26 monster, wielding his famous wand. Also interesting his the quote from Chris Perkins, who clarified that the PCs would not fight him directly, but that "Fortunately, Out of the Abyss gives characters the chance to amass a small army and also turn the demon lords against one another, thus weakening them. There are also a couple other ways to banish the demon lords back to the Abyss, which is the party's ultimate goal."

For more, click on either of the images below! For tons more Out of the Abyss coverage, click here! It comes out September 15th (or the 4th in preferred stores - that's next Friday!)

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[Sacrosanct]

If we're talking about level 20 PCs, there's nothing stopping the cleric just Divine interventioning the entire party adjacent to the big guy the moment they discover through whatever means where his lair is or where he's at. Boom surprise round, boom 405 hp cut down by more than half. Unless people are going to imply that Orcus can somehow stop Lathander from beaming his super clerics into his business?

Probably better to analyse prospective Orcus slayers at 15th level where most of these paths seem to end at.

Let's just set aside that Divine Intervention only replicates a cleric or domain spell, and I'm not familiar with any spell that allows you to do that. A level 20 cleric still only has a 20% chance of that happening. So the thing "stopping a level 20 cleric" is only an 80% chance of failure... And you don't think Orcus is prepared for things like that? How old is he? I'm sure he's has adventurers try to do things like that before.

Please, PLEASE don't try to theorycraft a battle with Orcus based on an assumption. 5e doesn't work well with theorycrafting, especially when you're dealing with the amount of variables that you would have with a demon prince.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I never insinuated the DM should change the rules or his stat block.

And not using the exact average hp is arbitrary? I certainly wouldn't classify it as coloring outside the lines of RAW, so to speak.

You can use the average, or you can roll, but if you just give him close to max HP without rolling, yes, that is an arbitrary increase.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If we're talking about level 20 PCs, there's nothing stopping the cleric just Divine interventioning the entire party adjacent to the big guy the moment they discover through whatever means where his lair is or where he's at. Boom surprise round, boom 405 hp cut down by more than half. Unless people are going to imply that Orcus can somehow stop Lathander from beaming his super clerics into his business?

Judging from 5E so far, Lathander is probably a 500 HP Solar with no ability to Teleport PCs more than 120 feet. ;-)

Let's just set aside that Divine Intervention only replicates a cleric or domain spell, and I'm not familiar with any spell that allows you to do that. A level 20 cleric still only has a 20% chance of that happening. So the thing "stopping a level 20 cleric" is only an 80% chance of failure... And you don't think Orcus is prepared for things like that? How old is he? I'm sure he's has adventurers try to do things like that before.


Please, PLEASE don't try to theorycraft a battle with Orcus based on an assumption. 5e doesn't work well with theorycrafting, especially when you're dealing with the amount of variables that you would have with a demon prince.

1.) Per PHB 59 "Divine Intervention" feature, the effect of any cleric spell or domain spell would be appropriate, but it's actually up to the DM to decide the nature of the intervention. It does not have to be a cleric spell.

2.) At 20th level, the Divine Intervention succeeds automatically.

 

[Ristamar]

You can use the average, or you can roll, but if you just give him close to max HP without rolling, yes, that is an arbitrary increase.

It's a choice within the RAW range. Arbitrary increase, IMO, implies an hp limit outside the rules.

Regardless, near max hp shouldn't make a huge difference for the folks that claim he's such a wuss that he can be taken down in 2 or 3 rounds.

 

[Sacrosanct]

1.) Per PHB 59 "Divine Intervention" feature, the effect of any cleric spell or domain spell would be appropriate, but it's actually up to the DM to decide the nature of the intervention. It does not have to be a cleric spell.

So his theorycrafting works if the DM decides to make the ability a lot more powerful than it is suggested to be? Ok. While we're at it, Orcus would be a cakewalk, as long as you had a DM who made sure the PCs never lost at anything too. I mean, if you're going to be modifying the guidelines pretty radically to make an argument why a monster is too weak, why stop there?

And yes, allowing the entire party suddenly teleport right next to Orcus and get a surprise attack in is pretty radically different than any spell in the book (which is what the guidelines are for Divine Intervention).

 

[steeldragons]

And let's not forget, teleportation doesn't function properly/normally in the Underdark (which is another reason, I am guessing, you're not going to see teleport in the stat block of any demonlord in Out of the Abyss).

I SO want to roll up a simple group [what, to me would be a "typical" group...if such a thing can actually exist in D&D] and throw them up against Orcus with the preposed average HP and again at max, but otherwise as written, and see what happens.

 

[charcoalninja]

It would certainly be a great experiment.

On Divine Intervention: The ability says: IF your deity intervenes, you can't use this feature again for 7 days otherwise you can use it again after you finish a long rest. So each day the party gets up, goes over their strike plans, and readies their mojo and the cleric tries to god tunnel them to Orcus. If it fails, the party sighs and waits, preparing their resources, monitoring the rumours and speaking to their sentries and spies in the underdark to guess at his movements only to buff up and try again the next day.

And I knew someone was going to say that a party wide greater teleport was somehow out of line with Divine Intervention. Hillarious. DM fiat powers get nerfed to oblivion whenever a plot monster rears its head. Main reason why fiat abilities are frustrating as hell to deal with as a player but that's a rant for another day.

Restricting us to Cleric only magic we have Gate. Orcus is roaming the underdark and not on his planar realm so Divine Intervention Gate party to Orcus (when we could actually gate Orcus to us and curbstomp him in a surprise round). Any reason that shouldn't work? Or are your divine intervention feature just 15% chance at a bonus spell slot once a week?

 

[Sacrosanct]

And I knew someone was going to say that a party wide greater teleport was somehow out of line with Divine Intervention. Hillarious. DM fiat powers get nerfed to oblivion whenever a plot monster rears its head. Main reason why fiat abilities are frustrating as hell to deal with as a player but that's a rant for another day.

No, it's not hilarious. It says right there under the ability an appropriate use would be to replicate an existing spell. As far as I know, there isn't a single spell anywhere that remotely comes close to being able to teleport your entire party right next to Orcus and get a free surprise attack on him. You think that's nerfing DM fiat? It's right up there with using DM fiat to just give everyone a 20 in each stat, it's such a bigger benefit than what is advised. But then I'd bet you'd complain that the monsters are too easy then too, completely ignoring that you changed the guidelines to benefit the PCs.

When you give the PCs a benefit that is above and beyond what is actually in the rules, you don't really have much of a leg to stand on when complaining that monsters are too weak. If you want to use divine intervention that way in your game, knock yourself out. But you can't then complain that the encounters are too easy when you do so.

"Man, goblins are a cakewalk for our 1st level party."
"Really? Didn't you give each PC an extra 20hp to start with?"
"Don't nerf my DM fiat!"

As far as gate, it reads to only work on another plane. The underdark isn't another plane. It also says that dieties and planer lords can ignore it. I'd consider a demon lord like orcus to fit as either a diety or planer lord.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

If a DM does allow Divine Intervention to Teleport the party to Orcus in the Underdark. I would not allow a surprise round. Most Deities are not very subtle and Orcus would see the divine light come forth and start seeing the PC's materialize before him. Aka letting him get his guard up so they won't get a surprise round.

If they were using this to get to him while he is in his lair they would not be able to get right next to him. Orcus has a great deal of control over his layer. I would say the PC's just pop in front of the entrance to his lair.

 

[Iosue]

Orcus has a great deal of control over his layer.

I hear this in the voice of that "Monster! RAWR!" gnome from the 4e cartoons.