Orcus vs. Demogorgon

[gyor]

That does make me think that he has power equivalent of a lesser god without actually being one. It didn't occur to me to read the MM for more information on him.

I had previously been going off the 5e FR lore where he is still listed as a god. I got even more confused upon reading MtoF where he grants powers to cultists. It might be the whole thing where in the FR he is a god, in Greyhawk, etc, he is still "just" the pre-eminent archdevil.

They already retconned that when they put Tiamat in hell.

 

[gyor]

Yes, that's a good point. I was assuming that without his wand he'd be making punch or claw attacks in place of it (which would probably put him slightly below Demogorgon), not just twiddling his thumbs, but I was thinking about the undead creation abilities and neglected to mention that part.



Yeah, the range issue is the major point. He can only grab it from 30' away, and then would have to keep wrestling with Orcus to try to get it close enough from him to take, and on rounds where he wins he can fly it 40' away from Demogorgon. Is that +1 bonus on the check for Demogorgon going to beat the extra 40' of movement when Orcus wins? I don't know. Swallowing it is a good idea when he gets it close enough. And then we he gets it that close, you'll still need to use the OOtA stats (again, assuming Orcus can punch) for a solid win.



5e is both vague and contradictory on deities. I have read all of the published material about them other than whatever may be in the adventures (though I am familiar with how Tiamat works).

In addition to the unclear and possibly contradictory statements about the divine status or rank of Asmodeus, here are some other contradictions off the top of my head:
-The DMG says Greater Gods are "beyond mortal comprehension" but this is in no way backed up by anything else. Specific greater deities are described interacting with (and even potentially being threatened by) lesser deities in exactly the same way as they were described in previous editions.
-The DMG refers to demi-gods in the literal sense as children of a mortal and god. It says they aren't really divine, can't answer prayers, etc. Then every other product talks about Demigods as a type of deity just a step down from lesser deities, who can do divine stuff, respond to prayers, etc--exactly like previous editions of the game.
-Volo's Guide to Monsters says that Grazz't the Demon Lord (who is not a deity in 5e) has more power than Demigods, and that becoming one would not increase his power.

I think the first thing one has to do to make any sense out of it is to entirely ignore what the DMG says in that sidebar on divine ranks. We have Greater, Lesser, and Demi-gods. We don't have Intermediate Deities. We have other powerful beings which aren't deities but are more powerful than demigods. Make out of that what you will.

I finally just decided to create my own philosophy of how to reconcile things (which involves ignoring some elements).

Actually it does say that Demigods are divine, they can assend to Godhood with enough worshippers and they have some divine attributes, but only on one side of their family, so they are the weakest Quasigod. Quasigods (can't grant or hear prayers, give cleric spells), but they clearly gain power from being worshipped, enough that ascending to godhood is possible.

And yes Grazzt is powerful enough to kill Demigods and even many Titans.

We're does it say demigods can answer prayers and grant cleric spells in clear contradiction of the DMG?

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Actually it does say that Demigods are divine, they can assend to Godhood with enough worshippers and they have some divine attributes, but only on one side of their family

Other 5e sources that mention Demigods entirely dispense with the parentage aspect.

, so they are the weakest Quasigod. Quasigods (can't grant or hear prayers, give cleric spells), but they clearly gain power from being worshipped, enough that ascending to godhood is possible.

And yes Grazzt is powerful enough to kill Demigods and even many Titans.

We're does it say demigods can answer prayers and grant cleric spells in clear contradiction of the DMG?

Volo's Guide to Monsters page 199. Raxivort can hear their prayers, but chooses not respond because of his fear of being found by his enemies.

 

[Ganymede81]

I don't get the deal here.

Orcus and Demogorgon's stat blocks are conceits designed to facilitate adventures with PCs. They are not biosocial schematics for predicting which demon lord would win in a fight.

 

[gyor]

Other 5e sources that mention Demigods entirely dispense with the parentage aspect.



Volo's Guide to Monsters page 199. Raxivort can hear their prayers, but chooses not respond because of his fear of being found by his enemies.

Ah, I think that might be a special case, a side effect of the magic item he used, he's not a normal demigod, or he had enough worshippers to ascend to lesser god status at some point after he's used the magic thimbul, after all he created an entire race to worship him.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I don't get the deal here.

Orcus and Demogorgon's stat blocks are conceits designed to facilitate adventures with PCs. They are not biosocial schematics for predicting which demon lord would win in a fight.

Ah, I think that might be a special case, a side effect of the magic item he used, he's not a normal demigod, or he had enough worshippers to ascend to lesser god status at some point after he's used the magic thimbul, after all he created an entire race to worship him.

As I said (on this thread or another), there are other places that back up the same concepts. I don't expect you to just take my word on it, so maybe someone else can remember the other sources. If not, I can always post them in a year or two with the new ones that come out in later books once I've run across them again while going through the books.

 

[neogod22]

He is an archdevil in 5e lore. He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.

EDIT: In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one? What do you think:

View attachment 98586

What lore are you talking about? He is listed as a Greater God since 3e. If you consider, he is the only God to rule an entire plane of existence, he would be the 2nd most powerful God in D&D of the 1st is AO.

 

[neogod22]

The problem with Asmodeous is that most people, Gods and the Archdevils included cant comprehend how powerful he is, because he doesn't show it the way other gods do. The Archdevils even tried rebelling and over throwing him and was unsuccessful. It there are 3 things that makes him more powerful than anyone realizes.
1. Like I said in my last post, he rules ALL 9 PLANES of Hell. Tiamat is imprisoned on the 1st plane. All other gods either rule part of or a complete level on a plane, but never the whole thing.
2. He took the Patronage of Tieflings (whether they like it or not). Usually creator races are Greater Gods. While he created tieflings from humans, they are still their own distinct race.
3. He bleeds pit fiends. When Asmodeous was cast out and fell into hell. He has had permanent wounds on his body that never healed. Each drop of blood that falls from these wounds creates a pit fiend. The most powerful of ordinary devils. Think about that, he bleeds CR20 Creatures.

 

[Mirtek]

What lore are you talking about? He is listed as a Greater God since 3e. If you consider, he is the only God to rule an entire plane of existence, he would be the 2nd most powerful God in D&D of the 1st is AO.

Nope, he was still a mere archfiend in 3e. There was a single 2e source, which stood a little bit outside of all commonly shared setting and planescape lore, that stated him to be a greater deity. Only in 4e was he then officially recognized as a greater deity and since the 5e MM this has been revoked again.

As to the story side, he ascended when he apparently consumed a comatose deity, but in the end said deity was not quite dead yet and when he awoke and broke free of Asmodeus, the later lost a big chunk of his stolen divine power with his unwilling meal.

 

[toucanbuzz]

I hated how, in Out of the Abyss (which we played all the way through), demon lords were nerfed down to big bags of hit points. In prior editions, they had a horde of spells and resistances to draw upon, cementing their authority as the bad-asses they should be. In the adventure, there's a literary scene where Yeenoghu takes down a Goristro with nary a scratch. On paper, that doesn't work.

In our campaign, for the Out of the Abyss finale, I went for the epic option with modifications to make the demon lords reflective of their bad ass status:[sblock]I had the players each take command of a demon lord (I took Demogorgon), and we duked it out on the streets of Menzoberranzan. I buffed them to max hp, because they're demon lords, not average joes, and added some spell abilities they had in older editions. I also made them immune to weapons below +2, and resistant unless +3. Each demon lords' weapon (and Demogorgon's tentacles) acted as +3 weapons. The players obliged with doing their best to win. Notably, spell use was mostly irrelevant as the demon lords' saves are just too good, and I gave tips on each demon lords' sheets about what they knew about their opponents (e.g. don't waste time with illusions).[/sblock]

So in the above spoiler, coincidentally on topic, Demogorgon and Orcus squared off. On the other side of town, mortal enemies Yeenoghu and Baphomet met head to head, and Graz'zt was the odd man out, playing spoiler to Orcus and Demogorgon. Since every demon lord hates Orcus, Graz'zt took pot shots, letting Demogorgon take a few hits too. Once he's in range, Demogorgon is just plain nasty, with or without modifications. Yeenoghu obliterated Bahpomet (speaking of nasty, that flail...), and Orcus fell to Demogorgon. Graz'zt then went all-out offense (his blade can dish it out), but Demogorgon was wearing him down. Yeenoghu, in a blood lust, charged across the field, finished off Graz'zt, then....drum roll, finished off Demogorgon. Having just become chief demon lord, all that stood in his way was a band of heroes... (and yeah, it was brutal but they pulled it off. Note to self: demon lords are extremely vulnerable to magic missile. Without true magic resistance, they're pretty powerless to someone zapping them down with a Wand. Note to self: Wands of Magic Missile are extremely powerful.)