D&D 5E Order Vs Twilight Cleric. Neo Warlord Abuse?

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar
You have a tendency to think any character you or your group is using is really strong. I think you keep a bit of rose colored glasses on when it comes to things like that.

There's plenty I don't post. I've seen most of the power builds in action or variants of them.

Most of my early picks long time ago are still in S or A tier rankings btw.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't have experience with a Twilight Cleric over level 9, but up til that point it was pretty busted. I had to wholly alter the way I built and ran encounters because of that one subclass in order to continue to actually challenge them.
And the bulk of most campaigns and/or adventures are going to be in those levels.

I don't know how Twilight made it to print.

The darkvision is pretty busted, but not usually gamebreaking unless you are in an underdark type campaign and the party does not need light for itself.

We had a character die in a campaign where I was playing a TC. Like I said IME above 7th level it is no longer the strongest cleric. Around 3 and 4 it is a lot stronger than most other characters, including most Clerics, but Cleric is probably the most powerful class at this level and Death Cleric is competitive with it even here. Level 4 or 5 it is pretty balanced with the best Clerics and over 7th level I would say it is weaker overall than Tempest, Light, Peace or Order.

The main reason why is action economy. Twilight Cleric has the best Channel Divinity in the game, but CD is not as important at high levels when better actions are available, and other Clerics are often have better action economy with CD that don't require an action as well as additional bonus actions or reactions. Tempest for example is able to max lightning damage with CD without using an action and can move enemies with lightning damage in addition to getting reactions from his subclass (and being able to move enemies when she uses that reaction).

 

[Zardnaar]

The darkvision is pretty busted, but not usually gamebreaking unless you are in an underdark type campaign and the party does not need light for itself.

We had a character die in a campaign where I was playing a TC. Like I said IME above 7th level it is no longer the strongest cleric. Around 3 and 4 it is a lot stronger than most other characters, including most Clerics, but Cleric is probably the most powerful class at this level and Death Cleric is competitive with it even here. Level 4 or 5 it is pretty balanced with the best Clerics and over 7th level I would say it is weaker overall than Tempest, Light, Peace or Order.

The main reason why is action economy. Twilight Cleric has the best Channel Divinity in the game, but CD is not as important at high levels when better actions are available, and other Clerics are often have better action economy with CD that don't require an action as well as additional bonus actions or reactions. Tempest for example is able to max lightning damage with CD without using an action and can move enemies with lightning damage in addition to getting reactions from his subclass (and being able to move enemies when she uses that reaction).

That and kill stiff faster is more or less just as good at damage prevention as the Twilight CD.

 

[Zardnaar]

Twilight is not broken IMO and at high levels Order is more powerful generally IME.

Twilight Sanctuary is really good, but it is an action to activate and at high level that action is competing for high level spells. As a result after about 7th level Twilight Sanctuary falls off rapidly as powerful spells become available.

When you put TS up against Spirit Guardians, Greater Invisibility, Banishment or Aura of Life it does not hold up well as an action. Still very useful, but more situational.

Voice of Authority is awesome and so is Embodyment of Law. I personally like Fey Touched with Dissonant Whispers on an order Cleric. A favorite tactic is upcasting Command as a bonus action on people caught in spirit guardians to make them waste an action and then making it so they can't escape and either attacking them or dodging as an action. Also Hold Person as a bonus action.

RAW I do not think Bless stacks. So if the RK and Rogue are blessed twice it is still only 1d4.

If you play to high levels the multiclass that shines is Order Cleric 6/Enchantment Wizard X. It is very Mad and takes a while to come online, but Enchantment Wizard gives you a bunch of awesome enchantments as well as an awesome at will action in Hypnotic Gaze that you can use while you throw out spells as a bonus action. When I play this multiclass I play either a Dwarf or a Race with a 35 move so I can dump both strength and dex and wear heavy armor and still move 25. You start Cleric, then 4 Wizard, then 6 Cleric, then the rest Wizard.

Bless stacks with the peace Clerics "bless" ability. I can't recall it's name atm.

Boss fights the martial types have 2d4 if needed.

Clerics ate powerful but kind of boring due to small spell list and it becomes clear fast the best ones to use.

Exceptions are things like Order and light Clerics.

 

[ECMO3]

Heavy armor + a shield, temp hp, and even flight- the aura isn't concentration, and a 30ft radius is huge (at least a paladin's aura means characters need to clump up) :')
It's not like it makes them invulnerable, but it outshines almost any other cleric subclass- the aura can even end fear/charm for some reason! And channel divinity uses come back on short rests.

The Channel Divinity does outshine other Cleric CDs, but at medium to high level CD is not where Clerics are getting their power, leveled spells are.

Ending fear and charm is the primary use at high levels.

 

[ECMO3]

Clerics ate powerful but kind of boring due to small spell list and it becomes clear fast the best ones to use.

If you are only on the Cleric spell list sure, but Clerics can get some pretty awesome off-list spells through subclass. Destructive Wave and Call Lightning (both with damage boost), Faerie Fire, Wall of Fire, Fireball, Slow, Dominate Person (cast as a Bonus action).

 

[Zardnaar]

If you are only on the Cleric spell list sure, but Clerics can get some pretty awesome off-list spells through subclass. Destructive Wave and Call Lightning (both with damage boost), Faerie Fire, Wall of Fire, Fireball, Slow, Dominate Person (cast as a Bonus action).

They do but a lot of them are also over shadowed by the best cleric ones.

Funny you mention tempest fleric doell list. Always found it over rated. It pretends to be a blaster cleric but light trounces it.

 

[ECMO3]

Funny you mention tempest fleric doell list. Always found it over rated. It pretends to be a blaster cleric but light trounces it.

Tempest is not played like a blaster Cleric at our table (Light is). Tempest is typically played like a melee/Gish cleric, almost always with the Booming Blade. It has some Blaster options and they are really powerful when combined with their subclass abilities, but they are also limited and I would not call it a "blaster" at least how I have seen it played.

 

[Zardnaar]

Tempest is not played like a blaster Cleric at our table (Light is). Tempest is typically played like a melee/Gish cleric, almost always with the Booming Blade. It has some Blaster options and they are really powerful when combined with their subclass abilities, but they are also limited and I would not call it a "blaster" at least how I have seen it played.

They're probably one of thebetter melee clerics even then odd ball choices like death, arcane and nature are arguably better.

 

[ECMO3]

They're probably one of thebetter melee clerics even then odd ball choices like death, arcane and nature are arguably better.

Death is good early, but not as strong late IMO.

Chill Touch and Toll The Dead remain awesome on a Death Cleric well into high levels as those become really high damage against multiple foes (6d12+1d8 for TTD and more with CD is a ton of damage for a Cantrip) but you are also splitting that damage and that is not really melee exclusive. If forced to melee a Death Cleric really doesn't have a whole lot more than any other melee Cleric.

Where Tempest excels is in the reaction and the ability to move enemies with it while in melee. This works very well with Booming Blade, which these guys usually have from somewhere (either a multiclass or a race typicaly). If you hit an enemy with booming blade and then he hits you and you damage and move him with Wrath of the Storm, then he has to move after that to attack you again. It is somewhat situational, but there are a lot of situations it works in.