(OT) Hmmm Star Wars II Seen it I have! Continued

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

No. I am pretty sure the attacks were supposed to fail.

1. The Chancellor would know she uses doubles. Why not just use abig enough bomb to take the entire landing platform out?

I don't know about the bugs, other than that would be really boring for the purpose of the movie. But you're attributing a great deal of micromanagement to Palpatine, aren't you? Wouldn't it be more like, "Hey, Lord Tyranus, hire somebody to whack this Amidala chick." Besides, when did she ever reveal to Palpatine that she uses doubles? And it's not as if he hasn't underestimated her before...

 

[Black Omega]

It's hardly a stretch to assume that by ten years after TPM some people know she uses doubles all the time. She revealed it to the Gungans(sp) and they don't exactly seem good at keeping secrets. And Palpatine is trusted and was the Senator was Naboo. I'd be more surprised if he didn't know.

And let's give Palpy some props here. I'm sure he had a plan either way. If the assassinations fail, then the events from the movie get him what he wanted. If Amidala gets killed, then the lethal threat of the separatists is revealed, the Jedi pursue the investigation, find the clone armor and the conspiracy that creates the droid army. Palpy, in sorrowful memory of his dear friend Sen Amidala, creates the army of the republic after assuming emergency power. Either way, it's all good for Darth Sidious.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Couple small problems. If the first bomb worked then there is little to zero chance of tracing anything back to the Cloner Planet. This means the clone army stays in the background which is a problem. Sidious needs the Jedi to find that planet and in effect claim the army.

If the bugs work there might be a chance of tracking them back. They are a rather exotic weapon to be sure. So maybe the bomb was supposed to fail and the bugs were a maybe weapon that would have started things down the right path.

It's hardly a stretch to assume that by ten years after TPM some people know she uses doubles all the time. She revealed it to the Gungans(sp) and they don't exactly seem good at keeping secrets. And Palpatine is trusted and was the Senator was Naboo. I'd be more surprised if he didn't know.

And let's give Palpy some props here. I'm sure he had a plan either way. If the assassinations fail, then the events from the movie get him what he wanted. If Amidala gets killed, then the lethal threat of the separatists is revealed, the Jedi pursue the investigation, find the clone armor and the conspiracy that creates the droid army. Palpy, in sorrowful memory of his dear friend Sen Amidala, creates the army of the republic after assuming emergency power. Either way, it's all good for Darth Sidious.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Couple small problems. If the first bomb worked then there is little to zero chance of tracing anything back to the Cloner Planet. This means the clone army stays in the background which is a problem. Sidious needs the Jedi to find that planet and in effect claim the army.

Of course, seeing as he had all that information already, he could have arranged a series of leaks that would have eventually led the right people to the right places. And he would have had better control over the time frame.

I really think Sidious is the type who plans for all contingencies. He's got a solid framework, and he's poised to take advantage of the little accidents that occur here and there. In a way, that's more impressive than assuming he had everything planned down to the molecule, AND it makes it easier to backtrack and cover his trail when he needs to (like in TPM. He lost his apprentice and the trade federation, but 10 years later he's pulling the federation's strings again, just through a proxy)

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I still think he planned for the attacks to fail. They were just too poorly executed and designed.

Also why would Fett use a traceable dart to kill the changling. He could have used his rocket or his blaster and probably killed one or both Jedi at the same time he took the Changling out.

He was leading the Jedi along on a dog and pony show on purpose.

Of course, seeing as he had all that information already, he could have arranged a series of leaks that would have eventually led the right people to the right places. And he would have had better control over the time frame.

I really think Sidious is the type who plans for all contingencies. He's got a solid framework, and he's poised to take advantage of the little accidents that occur here and there. In a way, that's more impressive than assuming he had everything planned down to the molecule, AND it makes it easier to backtrack and cover his trail when he needs to (like in TPM. He lost his apprentice and the trade federation, but 10 years later he's pulling the federation's strings again, just through a proxy)

 

[Rel]

The following is pure speculation.

First, maybe Palpatine really wanted Amidala dead but not with the bomb at the landing platform. That bomb would give him an excuse to assign some Jedis to protect her. When she died later from the second attack (I think the bugs were simply done for purposes of making the movie more exciting. But explosives were used in the first attack and therefore doing something different the second time was a good tactical move.) it would be a major blow to those opposed to the creation of an Army of the Republic. Furthermore, it would discredit the Jedis who were protecting her and possibly hasten Anakin on his journey to the Dark Side.

I'll posit that if the Jedi never discovered the existence of the clone army that it would have been just fine with Palpatine. When the droid army started attacking the Republic, two things would instantly happen. First, the Jedi (being the only defense forces the Republic had) would rush to try and fend them off. We already saw that they would have been on the losing end of that battle.

The second thing would be that the Senate would vote for Palpatine to defend the Republic by any means necessary. Once most of the Jedi were dead trying to defend against the droid army, Palpatine could go and retrieve his clone army and rescue the Republic from its plight. That is the kind of thing that gets one voted Emperor for life.

The best part of this whole scenario is that with Palpatine holding the strings on both armies, he can orchestrate the war for maximum dramatic effect. He can have the droid army attack targets important to the Jedi in order to bring them to battle where they can be destroyed. If too many systems start thinking that hope is lost and that they should surrender to the Seperatists, no problem. Just stage a dramatic loss by the droid army.

Frankly, the whole plan seems pretty elegant and low risk.

Looked at from this perspective (and again, this is just brainstorming on my part), things didn't go great for Palpatine in Ep II. Yeah, he got the clone army that he wanted. But he didn't get to use the droid army as an anvil to smash the Jedi against. Because Obi-Wan not only discovered his clone army, but also his droid army, the Jedi actually swiped the "clone card" from Palpatines hand and played it sooner than he would have liked.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this. But it would explain that Palpatine wasn't planning on sheer serendipity in order to eventually bring his clone army into play.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Interesting theory. I would mention though that the plan worked better in the movie than your plan did.

1. Lots of Jedi were actually killed including several off the council.

2. Your plan would still require Palpatine to explain where he suddenly got a clone army that took a decade to create.

By things going this way he got the Jedi to find the army and the cover of a long dead jedi ordering the army held up. so now when someone asks questions everyone gets to point at the Jedi.

This is another bonus. Now the average citizen might be a bit worried. Why are the Jedi ordering their own private army? Also where are they getting the money to order their own private army? Maybe we should do something about these elitest Jedi who spend our money like this and seem to have their own agenda. Maybe we are all better off if there are not so many Jedi around. All this trouble lately has Jedi right smack in the middle of it.

Its enough to drive Joe Public on Coruscant crazy.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

.....Maybe I'm wrong about all of this. But it would explain that Palpatine wasn't planning on sheer serendipity in order to eventually bring his clone army into play.

Exactly. He just took advantage of the situation to move his plan forward a little early. I think it's clear that not everthing had come together yet. Dooku was still concluding negotiations with a number of groups and systems. The Trade Federation, which is clearly necessary to the Separatists' cause, was still on the fence. They, in fact, are what convinced me that the assasination was intended to work.

By things going this way he got the Jedi to find the army and the cover of a long dead jedi ordering the army held up. so now when someone asks questions everyone gets to point at the Jedi.

This is another bonus. Now the average citizen might be a bit worried. Why are the Jedi ordering their own private army? Also where are they getting the money to order their own private army? Maybe we should do something about these elitest Jedi who spend our money like this and seem to have their own agenda. Maybe we are all better off if there are not so many Jedi around. All this trouble lately has Jedi right smack in the middle of it.

This would have worked just as well, and probably better, if Palpatine had been the one to discover the "treachery" of the Jedi. He could have publicly discredited them himself, and then legally assumed control of "their" army in order to defend the Republic. Then he would no longer have to work around the Jedi to use the clones. If anything, the Jedi got a stay of execution, so to speak, by finding the clones themselves.

 

[Rel]

Interesting theory. I would mention though that the plan worked better in the movie than your plan did.

1. Lots of Jedi were actually killed including several off the council.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "lots". It looked to me like maybe 20-30 Jedi got killed at the most. Imagine what would have happened if Yoda hadn't shown up with that clone army.

2. Your plan would still require Palpatine to explain where he suddenly got a clone army that took a decade to create.

Well, that is true. But if my pants were on fire and you ran into my office and doused it with a bucket of maple syrup, my first comment would not be, "Hey Doc, where'd you get that maple syrup?" It would be, "Thanks!"

My point is that the people would be too busy being glad they had the army to be worried about where they got the army. And besides, the crowd most likely to ask uncomfortable questions would be the Jedi. And as I pointed out, by the time the clone army came into play, most of them would be dead and the rest would be scattered and disorganized.

At that point, if Palpatine wanted to whip out the "The Jedi placed the order for the army a while back" story, he could and with little opposition. Also, considering that he has a strong likelyhood of being a repeat customer, he could get the Kaminoans to back him with whatever story he chose.

Again, people are willing to overlook quite a bit when they are fat and happy (as opposed to being conscripted to form an emergency Army of the Republic).

By things going this way he got the Jedi to find the army and the cover of a long dead jedi ordering the army held up. so now when someone asks questions everyone gets to point at the Jedi.

This is another bonus. Now the average citizen might be a bit worried. Why are the Jedi ordering their own private army? Also where are they getting the money to order their own private army? Maybe we should do something about these elitest Jedi who spend our money like this and seem to have their own agenda. Maybe we are all better off if there are not so many Jedi around. All this trouble lately has Jedi right smack in the middle of it.

Its enough to drive Joe Public on Coruscant crazy.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

If that is the case then Palpatine really hired some incompetent assasins. They used poor methods that did not work and left easy to trace evidence back to find them.