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(OT) Request for an answer to a difficult mathematical question

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Darkness said:
Ok, I rounded it up - so sue me! :p
But if you insist: My calculator (which has a special function for this that I used to get this result) gives a more exact result of 83.91458845 kg. Happy now? :D

BTW, what does CNIM stand for again...? :p

For anyone not in "the know", CNIM is Charles' Near-Inscrutable Mnemonic.
 

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MeepoTheMighty

First Post
Wow, there's enough bad physics on this thread to make my head spin. :)

There's a lot more energy stored in a human being than just our mass energy. Our molecules are bumping around happily at 98.6 degrees Farenheit, which is rather warm (cosmically speaking).


You can't just "convert mass to energy," as some have been saying. Energy is created from atomic reactions by two processes, fusion and fission.

Fusion occurs when two atoms combine to create a heavier element, such as two hydrogen atoms coming together to create a helium atom. Because the product is at a lower energy level than the starting materials, the extra energy is released to the environment. However, and this is the important part, you have to get the base materials to a high enough energy level to have a chance of the fusion occuring. Thus, you'd have to pump a lot of energy into the human body in order to "get over the hump," as it were.


Fission, simply put, is a nuclear reaction in which an atomic nucleus splits into fragments, usually two fragments of comparable mass. Because the atom is unstable to begin with, energy is released when the uranium splits into lighter elements.

But, there's no way to simply convert mass into energy.

Unless you're a wizard.

:)
 

Edena_of_Neith

First Post
It is quite true that x amount of magic does not equal y amount of energy (as energy is thought of from the scientific viewpoint.)

- - -

Looking at the case of Athas, we have here a planet orbiting a star that was once a blue star, and which is now in the process of becoming a red supergiant.
If you look at the physics and energy involved in the evolution of a blue star, you will see that the numbers and scope are staggering.
This is an evolution that will ultimately lead to a supernova.

It is stated in Dark Sun Canon that Defiler Magic is the reason for the change in the sun.
If we DO accept that the sun was a blue star, and if we DO accept that it is swelling into a red supergiant ... and if we DO accept that Defiler Magic sped up the process so that it took only a few thousand years, then that says something about Defiler Magic.
That something is ... not ... well defined, in my opinion, by the word paltry.

I use the word paltry, because the ruin of Athas by Defiler Magic IS paltry, in comparison to the change in the sun of Athas - it is so paltry in comparison that there is no comparison (not unless you put some new power into the equation that I do not know about, such as life being powerful like stars are powerful, in it's own way, for instance.)

I have commented that, if you accept that a human being (or any magic-worker) could harness an amount of magic equal to his or her's potential energy in the mass of his or her body, then your typical mage could wield a lot of magic.
Too much magic for their own good - said mage or magistress would quickly start blowing up whole cities, then whole countries, and ultimately the whole world would be destroyed.

My point was that there is a terrifically huge amount of energy in people, and perhaps the use of magic harnesses that energy to SOME degree - if it does, then what Gary Gygax has said, is annulled.
Or perhaps people have an innate magical potential equal to their energy potential, and they can tap some of it, and again Gary Gygax's statements are annulled.

However, the Defilers of Athas are a lot more powerful than my theoretical mage or magistress who pulls magic and energy from his or her body.
The amount of energy, or the magical equivalent thereof, necessary to change Athas's SUN in any way is ... well, it is beyond comprehension.
It's off the end of the greatest epic chart ever created by the most meglomaniac power DM who ever lived.
If you took the energy from the combined mass of every living thing on the verdant world of Toril, and assumed an equal amount of magical might, and you threw all that magic, all at once, all with the sole purpose of changing the sun of Athas, it would not work.
It simply would not be enough magic to do the job.

Those Defilers have something going for them, I say.
What, I do not know, but something good.
Where can MY characters gain that kind of power?

- - -

Of course, you do know what happens next in the evolution of Athas's sun, don't you - assuming the Defilers keep going and they keep changing the sun?
The next step is the Helium Pop, where the helium starts fusing into oxygen and similar elements.

This will come close to blowing the star apart, but not quite - and after a while the helium will settle down into a new core of fusion, while hydrogen fuses around it.

The luminosity and heat radiance of the sun will increase greatly, and fluctuate wildly.
The increased fusion reaction will start to overcome some of the star's gravity, causing it's outer layers to start blowing off in waves of superheated gas.

This will have some minor detrimental effects on Athas.
The atmosphere will be driven off by the wave upon wave of superhot blasts coming from the sun.
The remaining water will evaporate and blow away into space.
The surface will heat up until it melts, and Athas turns entirely molten.
Athas will continue to heat up until the temperature reaches the boiling point of it's rock, and then it will start to evaporate, a long tail of vapor streaming away from it, blown directly away from it's sun by the wave upon wave of hot blasts.

If the Defilers survive this, the next step is another pop, and then another, until iron begins building up in the core of the red supergiant sun.

The next step is a supernova.

Heh. Too much power in the wrong hands can be a bad thing indeed.
 
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Edena_of_Neith

First Post
As far as the machines in The Matrix go ... I think someone had the mass into energy concept in mind, when they wrote that script.
How else would you obtain enough energy from humans, to power a race of machines?

The machines could, I suppose - theoretically! - use human leavings such as perspiration, dandruff, dead skin, and waste material, to produce vast amounts of energy.
Of course, there needs to be antimatter to react with the matter to produce the energy, and the energy must be safely harnessed, and of course if antimatter is brought into Earth's atmosphere it will instantly explode (along with an appropriate amount of Earth's atmosphere, and an appropriate amount of the Earth itself), but I suppose the machines could figure it all out somehow.

However, I cannot see how the machines could run on the chemical energy produced by human beings.
Not even theoretically, not by any method I can imagine.

As far as I know, humans - far from being a source of energy - are net drawers of energy from their environment, even when unconscious (as they are in The Matrix.)
So, instead of being sustained by the human race - used as batteries, the machines would have to expend their own energy to keep all those humans alive.

Since it's not magic the machines are using to sustain themselves, and it's not human chemical reactions, it must be some sort of matter/antimatter reaction.

What else could it be?
 
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Darkness

Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
CRGreathouse said:


For anyone not in "the know", CNIM is Charles' Near-Inscrutable Mnemonic.
But I am in the know (although I didn't think of it at that moment) - so what is CNIM to me? :eek:
 

fuindordm

Adventurer
MeepoTheMighty said:
Wow, there's enough bad physics on this thread to make my head spin. :)

There's a lot more energy stored in a human being than just our mass energy. Our molecules are bumping around happily at 98.6 degrees Farenheit, which is rather warm (cosmically speaking).

E=mc^2 goes both ways. If I stand on a scale, the thermal energy in my body has an equivalent mass which will contribute to the reading on the scale--it's part of my rest mass. So if I say that I weigh 100kg, this includes all sources of energy in my body.

Regardless, if wizards have the magical power of total conversion from mass to energy--there's plenty available and they need not use their own mass either. If they are limited to the free energy in their body, you're right that this won't include any of their rest mass.

--Ben
 

Zappo

Explorer
MeepoTheMighty said:
But, there's no way to simply convert mass into energy.

Unless you're a wizard.
Yeah, that's the point. If you could convert mass to energy by magic, you would have a freakin' big amount of energy.

Edena, I am rather sure that Gygax either was only talking about chemical energy (which indeed wouldn't be that much and the loss would probably kill you if you tried a fireball), or he wasn't actually talking from any scientific POV and was referring to some undefined D&D spiritual energy.

Anyway, the only thing that Athas's sun transformation tells me about defilers is that they are pitifully inefficient. To cast a single Magic Missile, they probably consume enough energy to power Earth for a few millions of years. Not great mages at all.
 

warpmind

First Post
Mixing physics and D&D is no good (I study physics and play D&D and I'm no good at all).

Dungeons and Dragons is absolute fantasy with little place for logic. ¿By which means do you want your wizard to start the desintegration (and I'm not talking about 6th level spells) of his own body? ¿And how will he deal with that energy?. I mean that this energy is released as radiation (heat, light and so) and surely will dissociate the mollecular structure of anything material near him.

Your wizard "only" needs a pocket anti-matter generator, and he for sure deserves a Nobel for it's designing, and a sort of device for converting that energy into something usable, but I don't know any material capable of resisting the energy release of 100 Kgs of matter.

And above all the things, if a wizard has a so high intelligence, sure he'll prefer to get a neutron emissor and a piece of uranium to generate energy rather than disintegrating his own body.

Not very ecologic, so a good deal for a Defiler.:D
 

cofbaron

First Post
This is getting fairly off-topic, so I'll make this quick... In discussion with online acquaintences after the Matrix came out, one of the common theories that arose is that the humans are wrong about the cause of the war and the intent of the machine. One theory goes that humans fought humans with nuclear weapons, pretty much destroying the world. At this point the machines took over to save us from ourselves, and are working on trying to make Earth habitable again while fighting rogue humans who don't understand what's really going on, keep escaping from their tanks, and generally making a mess of things for everyone else.


Cecil
 

Zappo

Explorer
warpmind said:
Mixing physics and D&D is no good (I study physics and play D&D and I'm no good at all).

Dungeons and Dragons is absolute fantasy with little place for logic. ¿By which means do you want your wizard to start the desintegration (and I'm not talking about 6th level spells) of his own body? ¿And how will he deal with that energy?. I mean that this energy is released as radiation (heat, light and so) and surely will dissociate the mollecular structure of anything material near him.

Your wizard "only" needs a pocket anti-matter generator, and he for sure deserves a Nobel for it's designing, and a sort of device for converting that energy into something usable, but I don't know any material capable of resisting the energy release of 100 Kgs of matter.

And above all the things, if a wizard has a so high intelligence, sure he'll prefer to get a neutron emissor and a piece of uranium to generate energy rather than disintegrating his own body.

Not very ecologic, so a good deal for a Defiler.:D
Dude, it's magic. :D
 

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