Out of combat balance - skills trained and known

[Garthanos]

You might have to spend a feat on the extra +3 skill bonus at some point if you REALLY want, but I'm sure the higher INT can be useful in other ways too (IE maybe you can wear light armor, which can be a nice variation for a fighter).

I considered things like making Fast thinking warrior a feat to make Int into an initiative basis.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@darkbard - if we had constructive threads about useful techniques, then where would we find the time to argue that metagaming is not really RPGing!

@Garthanos - I don't think it would break the game to identify ways for fighters to have strong INT- or CHA-based skills. But I don't hae any suggestions on how to change the system to allow this.

But as the game is currently structured, here is my take: recognising the heraldry of the local realm, or making friends with a town mayor, is Heroic tier or perhaps low Paragon tier activity, and a fighter (especially with training) can be as effective at this as a bard, warlord or wizard.

But once we get into upper Paragon or Epic tier, we're talking about feats comparable to Luthien's charming of Morgoth. These are things a fighter is not likely to succed at (though the upper Epic tier fighter in my game did succeed in an Intimate check in a skill challenge involving Yan-C-Bin - naturally Yan-C-Bin wasn't scared of him, but the threat was effective against the djinn in Yan-C-Bin's court).

In other words, the fighter's mechanical weakness should (in my view) be narrated in terms of the potency and drama of the situation, not any in-fiction ineptitude.

Right, and this is again where things like "practice/ritual as way to bring about narrative your abilities and skill training don't favor" comes in strong. If you have a "Herald of the King" practice, then you can be a REALLY darn good Herald and INT bonus won't really matter (it could be based on CHA or simply work by some other mechanism that allows you a good chance of success).

 

[Garthanos]

Right, and this is again where things like "practice/ritual as way to bring about narrative your abilities and skill training don't favor" comes in strong. If you have a "Herald of the King" practice, then you can be a REALLY darn good Herald and INT bonus won't really matter (it could be based on CHA or simply work by some other mechanism that allows you a good chance of success).

There is certainly some reparations possible for attribute specific issues but I still think that because practices are behind a pay wall of being trained in a skill that the fighter and Barbarians with their 3 skills are not getting fixed by it and in effect gain less possibilities than those rogues who you might even say do not need it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There is certainly some reparations possible for attribute specific issues but I still think that because practices are behind a pay wall of being trained in a skill that the fighter and Barbarians with their 3 skills are not getting fixed by it and in effect gain less possibilities than those rogues who you might even say do not need it.

Agreed, and though I said I wasn't super exercised about rogues having 6 skills I AM unhappy about fighters having 3 (and barbs). I never thought that was cool.

 

[Garthanos]

@AbdulAlhazred

A new practice I have been considering

I know his name... insert queen sound track.
There is a gift where someone recognizes a persons family lineage and can even figure out there name with minimal clues except like examining speech or fighting style or hearing about something they did or choices they make etc for short bit

And its a insight based one that does something a bard might use history for.

 

[Fox Lee]

"No class skill list" has been my policy for quite a few years, too. I view class skill lists as a good way to direct new players, or insurance for groups who don't build a party as a group exercise. For a seasoned group like mine, who design the party to work together during character creation, they're just an unnecessary restriction.

 

[Garthanos]

I considered things like making Fast thinking warrior a feat to make Int into an initiative basis.

It does occur to me the most likely user of this unless it was restricted to martial classes only would be Wizard (or another Int heav caster) with the Tactical Warlord being second. That isn't to saying it couldn't be a light armored fighter.

 

[Garthanos]

"No class skill list" has been my policy for quite a few years, too. I view class skill lists as a good way to direct new players, or insurance for groups who don't build a party as a group exercise. For a seasoned group like mine, who design the party to work together during character creation, they're just an unnecessary restriction.

It does seem unnecessary restriction that is flavor focused. I think perhaps to change class skill lists to merely being recommended skills (kind of like something for a newbie to get their flavor from)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It does occur to me the most likely user of this unless it was restricted to martial classes only would be Wizard (or another Int heav caster) with the Tactical Warlord being second. That isn't to saying it couldn't be a light armored fighter.

Yeah, I don't see that as a problem per-se. It is still possibly useful to a fighter. OTOH if you are light armor and don't specifically care about INT, then you already CAN do DEX anyway, so its more of a way to make a guy who DOES want INT high have an extra benefit. Of course some might ask then why even bother with the feat?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It does seem unnecessary restriction that is flavor focused. I think perhaps to change class skill lists to merely being recommended skills (kind of like something for a newbie to get their flavor from)

This is mostly how HoML works. A lot of things have 'Associations', which don't actually force you to do anything, so technically they're color, but they link various boons to classes, races, etc. It just kind of gives you a hint that "Red Blade" is kind a roguish thing, but if your wizard really wants it, heck, why not?