Overpowered race?

[Dausuul]

I disagree, certainly at first level because it means that humans can take Expertise and still pick another feat. No other race can, so other races are essentially choosing between +1 to hit or a cool useful feat...

Doesn't change the fact that the human bonus feat is worth only the value of the weakest feat the human character has - not the strongest, because all but the weakest are feats you would have taken anyway. At 1st level, you only have a couple of feats, so even your weakest feat is going to be a pretty strong one, and it's a significant benefit. But the higher level you are, the less significant that benefit becomes.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

I disagree, certainly at first level because it means that humans can take Expertise and still pick another feat. No other race can, so other races are essentially choosing between +1 to hit or a cool useful feat...

Humans pick their non-expertise feat first.

Then, they have the same choice as non-humans. I don't see how you can disagree, it's like arguing against laws of logic or math.

Humans have always had the nice bonus of a cool useful feat. Plus, optimized non human have better ability score which is a bigger advantage than expertise at level 1.

 

[gribble]

At 1st level, you only have a couple of feats, so even your weakest feat is going to be a pretty strong one, and it's a significant benefit. But the higher level you are, the less significant that benefit becomes.

That sort of assumes that at some point your character will have to take a weak feat. While I agree with only the PHB this is the case, as more books are released that becomes less true. Feats were originally supposed to be only small bonuses, and if they had all stayed balanced with PHB feats I'd agree a bonus feat is not such a big deal. PHB2 feats have blown PHB feats out of the water, and one can only assume they'll be the new benchmark for feats.

So humans are overpowered because some feats are overpowered?

I'd more say that the power of an ability which gives you a bonus feat is directly proportional to the power of feats...

I don't see these feats as over powered though.

Even the people who don't think there is a problem with these feats haven't tried to argue that they aren't strictly better than the PHB alternatives. Are you trying to argue "strictly better" != overpowered? You might have better luck with that, though we'll have to differ on that opinion.

Humans pick their non-expertise feat first.
Then, they have the same choice as non-humans.

What? The order they pick the feats in is irrelevant... I don't see your point. Are you trying to argue that humans can't take expertise plus another feat at 1st level? Or that a non-human race can?

Plus, optimized non human have better ability score which is a bigger advantage than expertise at level 1.

Again, what? Optimised humans and non-humans will both have the same primary ability score. Are you trying to argue that +2 to a secondary ability score is better than +1 to hit with your attacks? Myself, and I'm sure most optimisers, would disagree.

 

[Crothian]

I'd more say that the power of an ability which gives you a bonus feat is directly proportional to the power of feats...

at the time of the abilities creation. This feat wasn't out when Humans were designed so it is not like the designers could see this as a possible feat selection.

Even the people who don't think there is a problem with these feats haven't tried to argue that they aren't strictly better than the PHB alternatives. Are you trying to argue "strictly better" != overpowered? You might have better luck with that, though we'll have to differ on that opinion.

I haven't done a side by side comparison between these feats and every other feat that has come out for the game so it may be strictly better then all of them or not. But better is not over powered. Over powered is troublesome meaning the character who takes them is going to be significantly better or over powered compared to creatures and characters with out these feats. I'm not seeing that.

 

[gribble]

at the time of the abilities creation. This feat wasn't out when Humans were designed so it is not like the designers could see this as a possible feat selection.

How exactly does the intent at the time of the abilities creation stop it being "significantly better" right now?

Over powered is troublesome meaning the character who takes them is going to be significantly better or over powered compared to creatures and characters with out these feats. I'm not seeing that.

As I said, this is purely a matter of opinion. IMO, a character at 1st level with even +1 to hit is going to be significantly better than one without, especially one that can take Expertise plus whatever other feat the character it's being compared to takes.
Though I think even someone with no strong feelings on the matter would have to say that a 25th level character with +3 to hit over creatures and characters without Expertise is "significantly better". Either that or they don't understand maths...

 

[MerricB]

I wonder what people would say if a 3pp released a race with the following abilities:

• +2 to any ability score
• +5 to any skill
• +1 to every non-AC defence
• choose either: +1 to hit, increase to +2 at 15th lvl, +3 at 25th lvl; or to increase non-AC defence bonus to +2 at 11th lvl, +3 at 21st lvl (can change ecision each level)
• choose an extra at-will power from your class

Post PHB2, this is essentially what humans are - arguably better, because they can choose other options with their bonus feat (though I don't see why they would...).

Actually worse. The trouble is, the bonus feat isn't the most powerful feat they have, because everyone has that feat. The human bonus feat gets weaker as they gain more feats.

If the human PC has the top 10 feats, and the elf PC has the top 9 feats, then the difference between them is not the first nine, but only the 10th best feat.

Cheers!

 

[Crothian]

How exactly does the intent at the time of the abilities creation stop it being "significantly better" right now?

Because no one was saying the ability was over powered before we say these feats.

And there is no way I'd call a character with a +1 bonus significantly better then one with out. Even a +3 bonus at high levels would be a strain, and I understand the math. I just don't let the numbers get in the way of the game. If this was a computer game then the numbers would matter a lot more.

 

[gribble]

Because no one was saying the ability was over powered before we say these feats.

Right, but the designers of the game should understand racial abilities (especially those of probably the most well known and popular of races), and the implications of introducing new rules elements that interact with those abilities. The reality is (regardless of intentions) that introducing a whole lot of new and strictly superior feats to the game does increase the power of that racial ability. Surely you're not trying to argue that isn't true?

I just don't let the numbers get in the way of the game.

Neither do I. Still doesn't change the fact that the feat is significantly better than others. I wish people would stop trumpeting this kind of argument as something which makes the feat balanced (or not "significantly better", aka overpowered).

 

[gribble]

Actually worse. The trouble is, the bonus feat isn't the most powerful feat they have, because everyone has that feat. The human bonus feat gets weaker as they gain more feats.

Sure, I understand that argument. The trouble with it is that at first level, it's a clear advantage.

And it doesn't stop there. Lets say there are 3 really good feats in the game, which in combination with the other human racial bonuses are better than any other race's bonuses. One could argue that until 4th level (when the other race can pick up all three feats) the human is better. Now lets say there are 10? What about if there are n+1, where n is the number of feats a character gains over 30 lvls?

If the PHB2 feats are the new benchmark, this is only going to get worse...

 

[small pumpkin man]

I disagree, certainly at first level because it means that humans can take Expertise and still pick another feat. No other race can, so other races are essentially choosing between +1 to hit or a cool useful feat...

Still, except for certain classes, humans were underpowered. I guess this just evens them up a bit.

The thing is, at first level, or even most of heroic, Expertise is not the obvious best choice. If theory-crafting, it probably is the best, but not by some huge obvious amount. It's only at Paragon that it becomes "omg you have to take this", so everyone should take it at about 8th, so that they can still have all of their cool heroic and paragon feats.

So no, while the human bonus feat is getting better as time goes on, just like it did in 3.5, I don't expect them to be "the best choice" let alone "OP" until there are seven heroic level feats which are as good as expertise is at Paragon level.