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Paladin as adversary in a good campaign?

NewJeffCT

First Post
Paladin as a bad guy? Have you done it before? Is my idea plausible? I am not talking about a fallen paladin turned to evil. I am talking about a true Lawful Good paladin as an adversary for a good party.

My idea.

The PCs are natives of the Kingdom of A. The kingdom is fairly small and has been at war on and off with its neighboring kingdoms, B, C, D and E for as long as anybody can remember - which is well over a century. Even when the war was not in full swing, there were constant skirmishes, border disputes and just outright mistrust and hostility. Political intrigue and double crosses are the normal way of life. No kingdom can really gain the upper hand, as if one became too powerful, the others would unite to slap them back down. The peasants are often overwhelmed with tax burdens to pay for the wars and the military. Significant development is severely impeded unless it somehow aids the war efforts and the defense of the kingdom.

Along comes a Paladin Bob, the new King in the Kingdom E. He sees the constant state of war as bad, as does everybody. He believes he hears a calling from his Lawful Good deity instructing him to do his best to stop the wars between the 5 Kingdoms. He gives speeches around his kingdom to the peasants and farmers urging them to rally to his cause so they can make the lives of their children better and more peaceful in a heavenly kingdom under his Good and Just God. However, instead of unilaterally declaring peace, he is instead marshalling them for war and trying to swell the ranks of his army for one big push across the other 4 kingdoms. In addition to the peasants and farmers, several other paladins from around the 5 kingdoms hear Paladin Bob’s call and believe in him. They also join his cause.

Paladin Bob’s forces quickly overwhelm Kingdom B, leaving your Kingdom A by itself to the North and Kingdoms C and D to the South.

You are loyal members of Kingdom A. Do you heed Paladin Bob's call and believe it best in the long run if your kingdom loses its independence while gaining peace & stability? His call is already being heard by peasants and farmers in your kingdom and there is some stirrings that Paladin Bob’s ideals sound good to them – a better life for them and their children, lower taxes, a peaceful and more secure life. To them, one master is no different than another. There are rumors that the King of C may renounce his title and join Paladin Bob.

Do you send emissaries to Kingdoms C & D for a coordinated 3 pronged attack in response? (Maybe a job for the PCs?)

Just curious – what do you think? I am guessing that many PCs would not like giving up their kingdom & freedom for another master, even if this master promises better things in the future. What if the PCs decide to throw in with Paladin Bob?

Just a random idea I thought of while on a painfully long plane ride about 10 days ago (Shanghai to Haerbin to LA to Atlanta to Connecticut!)
 

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Neat idea. I like a little moral ambiguity. There are a lot of ways you could go with this, depending on party composition and and the players.

* Perhaps a chaotic good Paladin of Freedom (from UA) could come forward and attempt to rally the remaining kingdoms against the invaders

* Maybe the party could seek out a little infernal help, all for the greater good, of course

* If you've got a party of self-centered types, maybe they might want to take advantage of the confusion and carve out a little fiefdom for themselves
 

NewJeffCT

First Post
Thanks for the compliments. Since I got back from China, it's kind of ripped off from the story of Emperor Qin Shihuang (see the movie "Hero" or "The Emperor & the Assassin), only instead of the evil Qin, I made the adversary a paladin.
 

pigi314159

First Post
The idea I think works fine. Historically, there are examples of "good guys" fighting amongst themselves for dominance and such. There is nothing inherently evil about this, at least I don't think so. Although, I would question the paladin a bit...using deception ain't exactly the most paladin-ish thing to do. It would be a bit bitter if he organized a "peasant revolt" against the oppression and savagery of the other kingdoms with the goal of uniting them in peace.

But yes...it is possible to have a paladin as a "bad guy" not all good works together, just as not all evil works together. A good example would be if a paladin is on a quest to retrieve a healing gem so he can heal his king, that is guarded by all sorts of holy beings because the gem is saught after by this one demon so he can get his body back. etc. But I do like the idea
 

jester47

First Post
I would take the option of Vasselhood. As a Good character I have been fighting the wars for a long time and understand Bob's point. So what I would do is say to Bob, let me run what is currently my kingdom and you can be my overlord. I will fight for your cause if you stick up for my rights. Besides, I cant really argue with you and your peasant army. If the wars stop, I can give more to my peasants and save more because I am not spending all my wealth on the war. Seems to me like king arthur... I am mean Bob is making everything better for everyone...

Aaron.
 

CrusaderX

First Post
It could work, just don't forget about both aspects of the Lawful Good alignment. I've seen individuals (both players and story authors) who have tried to come up with adversarial Paladins, and they always stress the "Lawful" part, while chucking the "Good" part right out the window. And if that were to happen, the character would of course no longer be a Paladin.
 

Kemrain

First Post
"Oh, sure he speaks with a honeyed tongue, but how do we know his intentions? If we bow down to him, he will control 5 kingdoms, and have say over all of our lives. His message is one of peace, but yet he masses armies. War is Peace?! I would not be at all suprised if, when all bowed down before him, this Bob revealed his true colors. I suspect he is a fiend, some vile incubus sent to reap the souls of those foolish enough not to stand an oppose him!"

Do some recon. Find out what this Bob is really about. Don't hand your freedom over to just anyone!

Could work out to be a great story, but I'd never trust a military leader to have my best interests in mind. Just beware... A Good foe is a wondeful excuse to become Evil.

- Kemrain the Chaotic Suspicious.
 

NewJeffCT

First Post
pigi314159 said:
The idea I think works fine. Historically, there are examples of "good guys" fighting amongst themselves for dominance and such. There is nothing inherently evil about this, at least I don't think so. Although, I would question the paladin a bit...using deception ain't exactly the most paladin-ish thing to do. It would be a bit bitter if he organized a "peasant revolt" against the oppression and savagery of the other kingdoms with the goal of uniting them in peace.

But yes...it is possible to have a paladin as a "bad guy" not all good works together, just as not all evil works together. A good example would be if a paladin is on a quest to retrieve a healing gem so he can heal his king, that is guarded by all sorts of holy beings because the gem is saught after by this one demon so he can get his body back. etc. But I do like the idea

Sorry, I re-read my original post and it was not too clear. The paladin thinks his divine instructions tell him that the only way to bring peace to the 5 kingdoms is to conquer them all - when he originally told the other 4 kings he wanted to bring peace, they thought he was just going to unilaterally disarm. However, instead the paladin's idea of peace is uniting all the kingdoms through force. This is the idea he preaches to the peasants & farmers - "Take up arms with me and we can conquer the other 4 kingdoms and bring peace to our lands once & for all." No deception on his part, other than the other 4 kings misinterpreting him.

Now, as a citizen of America (or whatever country), if China came in to our country, Russia, the EU, Africa & India and said to submit to our rule and we'll have world peace, would you do it? If they invaded India with those intentions, would you suddenly want to throw in with China?
 

Steverooo

First Post
No, you cannot have a true Paladin being the bad guy... Paladins are not bad!

Yes, you can have the Paladin(s) being the adversar(y/ies). This is quite possible.

A good way to start is to make Paladin Bob a Paladin of some deity, and see what his "code" will lead him to believe. Then play up the parts that will irritate the PCs...

Paladin Bob worships a godlet who hates Arcane Magic? New laws for his kingdom requiring registration of all Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards, testing, taxes, user permit before EACH SPELL can be cast (along with appropriate fees), etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Paladin Bob is a true Christian Knight? No stealing, no whoring, no lying, no adultery, no witchcraft... The Rogue is probbly going to rebel, the Barbarian probably will, the whores and pimps certainly will, as will the witches. The Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards might. The Clerics and Paladins of other deities almost certainly will, as will advocates of "Free Love", covetousness, etc.

You can pretty easily make things hard on the PCs, through this method, but there are also other ways. Here's another good one...

The King (Paladin Bob) is a good man, but his servants are Texas Rangers (Los Diablos Sangientes, or "The Bloody Devils"). They intend to restore Law & Order, but in the order of Order, first, and THEN the Law! They enjoy riding over people, rough-shod, and act the proper "Sherriff of Nottingham" role... thus allowing the PCs to act the Robin Hood roles. Or Zorro (or Friar Tuck, or the Scarlet Pimpernel, or...)
 
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Carpe DM

First Post
I think this kind of conflict is vastly underplayed. While the usual morality play is between good and evil, the interesting morality play is between Law and Chaos: security and freedom.

People justify evil acts in the name of freedom every day. And tyrants enslave and conquer. Why doesn't the same apply to good people?

In my campaign world, the biggest war going is currently between two predominantly lawful good cultures: the Tetrarchy, which is the church hierarchy, and the dethroned Emperor. In the middle are the people who would prefer to be ruled neither by church or state.

The characters' mentor is the Emperor's right-hand man: a man so devoted to his Emperor that no law and no life will be permitted to stand in the way of returning the Emperor to the throne. This right-hand man is revered and honored -- and chaotic evil. Why? His personal loyalty to his emperor overwhelms all else.

I think there are infinite and interesting ways in which this can be worked out. The idea that all Lawful Good people agree over, say, who owns what land, or what God ought to be worshipped, is frankly nuts. The tragedy of the world is that these things do cause wars between people of principle.

best,

Carpe
 

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