Paladin Balance question

[wilrich]

An interesting discussion came up amongst my group recently and I'd be curious to see what people think. The issue concerned the paladin class:

The paladin must follow a fairly strict moral code or risk losing many of his class abilities -- the question is, is this accounted for in the way the class is balanced against the others? That is, is a paladin who has not "fallen" slightly more powerful than the other classes (relatively and generally) because a paladin (unlike most conventional classes) runs the risk of losing their class abilities and becoming much less powerful than the other classes? This was purely a theoretical discussion (no one is currently playing a paladin), but it did get us wondering about how (or if) such things are taken into account in the game. The consensus we reached was that this does not appear to be taken into account, because, it seemed to us, that an "unfallen" paladin is more or less equal in power to the other classes and that this, ultimately (again b/c of the risks the paladin runs of falling), makes the paladin slightly weaker than the other classes -- who are more or less equal in power to an unfallen paladin but do not run the risk of loosing their class abilities.

Thoughts? Comments? I'm just curious to see what people think about the topic.

Thanks!

 

[fusangite]

An interesting discussion came up amongst my group recently and I'd be curious to see what people think. The issue concerned the paladin class:

The paladin must follow a fairly strict moral code or risk losing many of his class abilities -- the question is, is this accounted for in the way the class is balanced against the others?

At low levels, definitely yes. It seems to me that clerics and paladins, for related reasons, are given more powers. Unfortunately, unlike the cleric, the paladin does not keep this relative advantage as he gains levels. In my view, that's poor character construction because while a first level paladin with code is balanced, a 15th level paladin with code is underpowered.

 

[Torm]

I think there is no balance against that the way you are thinking, for two reasons:

1. Being a Paladin is a priviledge in and of itself, not something that you should be provided compensation for to account for the possibility that, through your own actions, you would lose that status. Such compensation would go against the whole spirit of the class.

2. Unfortunately, in My eyes , there IS something to offset losing your status - you now qualify for a number of prestige classes such as Divine Champion or (grrrrrr) Blackguard.

So speaks Torm.

 

[I'm A Banana]

IIRC, 3e was designed, in part, specifically to exclude mechanical bonuses for role-playing restrictions.

The code is a role-playing restriction. The powers are not more powerful because of the code.

The cleric is a different case because that class provides one feature that no other class can really comprably match, and thus is pretty essential for any party. Thus, people are encouraged to play one because they are good at more than just their primary role.

The Paladin's role isn't very unique, so there needs to be no real special incentive to play her.

I'd say the Paladin is no more powerful than a fighter or barbarian, and serves a similar role, but shines only against a specific category of threats (fiends, undead, etc.).

So, I think, no, the paladin isn't especially potent to make up for having a code. You can drop the code, change it, apply it to different alignments, make it revolve around whatever you want or remove it entirely and the Paladin will not be overpowered for it.

 

[Odhanan]

I certainly agree with fusangite that a high-level Paladin seems weak. I actually feel that the Paladin doesn't get enough advantages compared to the strict RP frame it provides. That's a hard call though, because it depends enormously on how individual DMs interpret the pal's code and what effect it has on the game.

However, if the balance in the PHB refers to an "average" gameplay of this or that character in this or that gaming group, I indeed do think the paladin is underpowered, and the higher level the paladin is, the worse it becomes.

 

[CrusaderX]

I definitely think a Paladin should get a power boost to balance the character out with their code. I realize that not every group sees it that way. But in my campaigns, the Paladin would get more power, and their code would be more strictly enforced because of it.

The class variant in the PHII seems to help a bit, but I wouldn't stop there.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think the idea when designing the paladin was that spells would take over, able to enhance and protect and the like.

The truth is, those spells aren't any great shakes in general. There's a few, but precious few that do something that the party cleric can't already do better. They need to have something other than spells and mount advancement.

 

[fusangite]

I think the idea when designing the paladin was that spells would take over, able to enhance and protect and the like.

The truth is, those spells aren't any great shakes in general. There's a few, but precious few that do something that the party cleric can't already do better. They need to have something other than spells and mount advancement.

Here are some suggestions for paladin levels about 5th in no particular order:
1. The ability to turn evil outsiders
2. Adding the celestial template to the mount
3. The capacity to summon good outsiders
4. A specialized leadership feat
5. The ability to combine 2 and 4
6. A good equivalent of the blackguard's frightful presence ability against evil creatures
7. Geometric rather than algabraic progression in the cure disease ability
8. Adding other healing capacities to cure disease such as neutralize poison and break enchantment

 

[Shadowbane2]

Complete Warrior came with a couple of PrCs that the Paladin can successfully multiclass as.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Thoughts? Comments? I'm just curious to see what people think about the topic.

I agree with the consensus reached by your group: an "unfallen" paladin is no more powerful than any other class. The restrictions placed on them are purely for flavor.