Paladin Ranged Attacks?

[I'm A Banana]

So this is the second or third time I've seen someone struggle with the problem, so I figured I'd ask the braintrust here.

Situation: "I am a paladin! Rawr!"
Problem: "I...cannot...do anything...to anyone...who is not right next to me...boooo."

Currently, I've seen a Dragonborn Str-Paladin and an Eladrin Cha-Paladin struggling with the same problem. One's 10th level, one's 3rd. They've both relied almost entirely on Radiant Delirium (which, for a Strength-based paladin, is already a weak choice that is likely to whiff and can only be done once per day anyway, and even for the Chaladin, seems less than ideal), or entirely sub-optimal ranged basic attacks (such as javelins), when they're not in a position where they can charge into melee.

Now, most fighters are pretty good at defending even from some range. If I can shoot them with a bow, I can mark them, and while I might not stick them in place, I can hassle them a bit. Divine Challenge isn't quite so effective, though, since it has a range limitation of 5. You can hassle something a little without getting right up to it, but it's pretty limited.

Any helpful solutions for helping these players out a bit? Anything useful they can do at range, or are we limited to telling them to suck it up?

 

[Eccles]

1. Divine sanction isn't subject to the same limitations as Divine Challenge - any power which sanctions something? They're marked.

2 Divine Challenge needs to be maintained. To maintain it, you have to either attack the enemy or end your turn adjacent to it. You knew this when you were building the character. The dragonborn can breathe fire over things; that's a ranged weapon which counts as the attack. The eladrin can hit someone else (perhaps divine sanctioning everything within 3 as he does so), mark something 5 squares away, and then teleport adjacent to it - he now has half the battlefield chasing him around to avoid taking radiant damage...

3. There are ranged powers out there. Heck; if you're desperate, multiclass into something to get a ranged encounter power. There are some which use charisma in the warlock and sorcerer selections at the cost of one feat. If you need to use a ranged power more than once or twice in a fight, you're probably doing something wrong.

4. For the strength paladin, really what's wrong with chucking a hammer or axe at something a few times at level 3 - you've barely got any power anyway, and throwing something's going to be about as damaging as your melee attack to begin with.

5. Charging. For most paladins, this is likely to be a range 10 effect with a mark attached to it at some point. Granted it's your whole turn done, but hey... Even take the at will which sanctions something as the charge attack, and find something else to do with the minor action...

I've played a paladin (half elf with a dilettante ranged power I barely ever used) from 1st to 27th, and whilst there's been the odd time I've wished I had more ranged powers, there have been more times that I've been surreounded by villains often 2 or 3 deep, smacking away and sanctioning them by the dozen and locking them down tightly to let the rest of the party do whatever the heck they want!

 

[mneme]

Strength Paladins? Strength Paladins have it -easy-.

Step 1: Buy a +1 throwing hammer.
Step 2: Profit.

Strength paladins can use Heavy Thrown weapons, therefore they've got a myriad of options--and if you can get in range to challenge -once- you can maintain your challenge with a sequence of ranged basic attacks with your hammer.

Charisma Paladins, OTOH, are among the few classes that have big problems with range. Paladins of Sehanie can take Serene Archery and make basic attacks with a bow using Wisdom, but that's a special case -- and paladins of Corellon have a reason to use a CHA/Dex/wis stat breakdown and so can likely use bows competently. For all else, your best bet is probably to just buy a flying mount (or multiclass, but you likely have better uses for your multiclass slot--though if it fits your character, Eyebite is both ranged and nasty for you).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Main issue with the ranged basic: It doesn't do much. Some damage, and then...? It's not exactly fulfilling your role, and if you have to do it over and over again, it's kind of like you're not even there, when everyone else is largely fulfilling their roles even at 10 squares, even if they'd be MORE effective up close.

I'm looking for a solid ranged Plan B, ideally, or a way to get into range (charging is nice, but what if there's a cliff or a ledge or a trap or...).

 

[Squire James]

I think that Paladin build that you want is in that book that gives Wizards good weapon powers, actual Striker powers for Warlocks, and bonus material for Runepriests, Seekers, and Changelings. Good luck finding that book!

 

[Mengu]

I've witnessed the same challenge with charisma paladins. I think Strength paladins can throw javelins and the like, so they are not completely useless.

Half-elves obviously have the dilettante option to snag a 20 square Acid Orb, or a 10 square Cunning Words, Vicious Mockery, Dragon Frost, Eyebite, or even a wisdom attack like Hand of Radiance, Radiant Vengeance, or Fire Hawk.

Everyone else, well, they don't have as many options. Multiclassing Invoker is an okay option though it sucks that Religion is doubled up, unless you have a kind DM. Warlock Multiclass is another option. There are a few items that can help, like Acidic Weapon if you have Virtuous Strike.

But in general I also see Paladins challenged quite a bit with foes they can't reach. Teleporting and flying tools can certainly be handy.

 

[FireLance]

So what are the other PCs doing? It has been said that 4E is more of a team game than prevoius editions. If the paladin can't reach a target, shouldn't the leader be giving him extra movement, or the controller sliding the enemy closer to him? If the other PCs don't have such powers, maybe they should consider getting them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There are ranged powers out there. Heck; if you're desperate, multiclass into something to get a ranged encounter power. There are some which use charisma in the warlock and sorcerer selections at the cost of one feat.

Warlock, yes...but the Sorcerer MC feat Arcane Prodigy grants training in Arcana, a damage bonus and sorcerer implements, while the Sorcerer MC feat Soul of Sorcery grants resistance to an energy type. Neither grants a power. You'd have to burn a feat on a Power Swap to get a Sorc power through multiclassing.

Is there another Sorcerer MC feat out there of which I'm not aware?

As for Charisma Paladins, correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't they take Melee Training so they could use Charisma as the relevant stat when using a ranged weapon? (Or any weapon?)

 

[theNater]

Paladins have a few utility powers that allow them to defend by staying close to their allies. Martyr's Blessing(lvl 1), Divine Bodyguard(lvl 6), Noble Shield(lvl 10) and the like let the paladin take damage so the rest of the party doesn't have to.

 

[DracoSuave]

Charisma Paladins, OTOH, are among the few classes that have big problems with range. Paladins of Sehanie can take Serene Archery and make basic attacks with a bow using Wisdom, but that's a special case -- and paladins of Corellon have a reason to use a CHA/Dex/wis stat breakdown and so can likely use bows competently. For all else, your best bet is probably to just buy a flying mount (or multiclass, but you likely have better uses for your multiclass slot--though if it fits your character, Eyebite is both ranged and nasty for you).

Also, take the ranged charisma powers that do things like blind your enemy or otherwise hamper their ability to do bad things to your party.