Paladins cause heartburn

[lightful]

I'm certain someone remembers the old 1E cartoon of a dragin rubbing its tummy and looking all queasy with the thread title in the caption.

Last night that situation came up in our game, thought it wasn't actually a dragon, but a behir. It also spawned a little rules controvery that I hope you knowledgable folks can clear up.

The paladin had marked the behir and then been swallowed. On it's next turn, the behir wanted to do some sort of area lightning damge but couldn't include the paladin in it's targets as he had been swallowed, Divine sanction triggered and killed the poor beast ... talk about heartburn !

You may already see the problem ... Could the paladin have been included in the targets if the behir had included itself in the area of effect ? Obviously the paladin wouldn't have taken any damage as the behir had no line of effect to him, but does divine sanction trigger in that situation ?

Thank you in advance

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

You can't target a creature you don't have line of effect to. Therefore, any attack the creature would make cannot by definition include the paladin as one of its targets, thus triggering DC or DS. Paladins can cause some nasty heartburn.

 

[the Jester]

Not only is that legit, it is also totally awesome.

Our paladin's player just moved across the country. I'm gonna miss her crazy stunts like that.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

That's why I always thought that Swallow Whole was not a good thing to use on anything that doesn't run around in cloth.

Brad

 

[Dice4Hire]

Heartburn kills monsters in your game? Rough.


Sounds like a good character nickname coming on.

 

[MortalPlague]

The paladin had marked the behir and then been swallowed. On it's next turn, the behir wanted to do some sort of area lightning damge but couldn't include the paladin in it's targets as he had been swallowed, Divine sanction triggered and killed the poor beast ... talk about heartburn !

That is a fantastic gaming story. And I think, by the rules, absolutely correct.

 

[lightful]

You can't target a creature you don't have line of effect to. Therefore, any attack the creature would make cannot by definition include the paladin as one of its targets, thus triggering DC or DS. Paladins can cause some nasty heartburn.

But he wouldn't have been targetting the paladin, just the area, that he (the behir) and the paladin occupied. It was always my understanding that as long as the marked creature does it's level best to include the marking defender in it's attack, mark punishment shouldn't trigger ... or am I mistaken ?

In a somewhat similiar vein (at least to my way of thinking), the warlord has Friendly Fire. This power forces an enemy to reroll the attack agaisnt an ally if the original attack missed (and with the ranger using Disrupting Shot it WILL miss more often than not). The question then becomes, if the attacking enemy was previously marked, and the original attack DID target the paladin, yet the reroll after the miss doesn't (obviously), would the attacker be subject to mark punishment ?

Or, the melee basic attack granted to a foe after the warlord uses Brash Assault; that attack can ONLY be made against the warlord, yet he can choose NOT to do it, so if he does, and he had been previously marked, is the enemy subject to the punishment for violating a mark ?

And yet another question which just occured to me relating to the original incident with the behir. As the behir was about to attack with it's area lightning thing, the paladin from within it's belly tried to interrupt the attack with Price of Cowardice and missed. This is an immediate interrupt with the trigger being the marked target attacking anyone else, well and good, except, from his position inside the beast, the paladin couldn't actually see the attack unfolding, the condition being met (if it was indeed, see the original question), so could he interrupt it ? I suppose that in the case of the paladin we could RP some sort of divine alarm going off in his mind, but what if he had been a fighter ?

 

[marelion]

Well, this last question you come up with is a whole lot trickier:

AFAIK in the Swallow attack of the behir it is explicitely stated that a swallowed creature has no line of sight or effect to anything other than the target. If the behir should happen to swallow up the defender I would let him trigger Immediate Actions related to the Behir, simply for fun`s sake.

It does not feel too heroic to be stuck in the belly of a monster without being able to support the group in any meaningful way. The damage defenders deliver is normally rather unimpressive and denying a defender his IAs would not help increase the fun. IMHO the rules are not clear about it, whether you could trigger IAs or not.

And with regards to Brash Assault, yes a monster taking the MBA would be subject to a defender`s mark, as the MBA does not inlude the defender.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

But he wouldn't have been targetting the paladin, just the area, that he (the behir) and the paladin occupied. It was always my understanding that as long as the marked creature does it's level best to include the marking defender in it's attack, mark punishment shouldn't trigger ... or am I mistaken ?

It's kind of wonky, but in the context of the rules, the word Target has a very specific meaning, and in the case of a mark punishment triggering, that meaning is applied in a specific way. "Level best" still means that the monster failed to meet the condition to avoid the punishment for violating the mark.

... Until the mark ends, the target takes radiant damage the first time each round when it targets any of your allies with an attack power that doesn’t include you as a target.

What this is basically saying is that when the creature you have challenged makes an attack that does not target the paladin, the paladin gets to inflict damage, this is clear. In order for the behir in this case to actually target the paladin, as in choose him as a Target for any of its powers, it must have Line of Effect to that target. When creatures are swallowed by the behir's attack, like with most swallow attacks, no creature has line of effect to it, meaning, anything swallowed is not a rules legal Target for anything.

Even close and area bursts and blasts have to have line of effect to their targets. In the case of area attacks, they determine line of effect from the origin square of the burst, and in order to target a square with an area attack you only need line of sight to it, but in this case you don't have that either, as it states in the swallow power that nothing has line of sight or line of effect to the swallowed creature. This is true even though they are in the same square.

Or, the melee basic attack granted to a foe after the warlord uses Brash Assault; that attack can ONLY be made against the warlord, yet he can choose NOT to do it, so if he does, and he had been previously marked, is the enemy subject to the punishment for violating a mark ?

He only violates the mark if he makes an attack (hit or miss) and does not include the paladin among the Targets of that attack.

And yet another question which just occured to me relating to the original incident with the behir. As the behir was about to attack with it's area lightning thing, the paladin from within it's belly tried to interrupt the attack with Price of Cowardice and missed. This is an immediate interrupt with the trigger being the marked target attacking anyone else, well and good, except, from his position inside the beast, the paladin couldn't actually see the attack unfolding, the condition being met (if it was indeed, see the original question), so could he interrupt it ? I suppose that in the case of the paladin we could RP some sort of divine alarm going off in his mind, but what if he had been a fighter ?

Price of Cowardice only cares if the condition is met. The paladin doesn't need to see it happen. And the behir is still a valid target, since he was marked enemy making an attack that did not include the paladin. The paladin still has line of effect and line of sight to the behir, so he is free to target it with pretty much anything.

Even if it was a fighter's mark being violated, the fighter could still trigger Combat Challenge, or another power based on these conditions. You can fluff it however you like. Maybe he can feel the beast moving in for the attack, all its muscles flexing to strike, and the fighter reacts. He doesn't care who is being Targetted, he only knows that this beast is attacking someone, and he isn't in on the fun. Time to do some damage from the inside!

I hope this helps.

 

[Raunalyn]

Had a very similar situation happen in my game with a Behir and a Battlemind. The Battlemind had marked the Behir, and the Behir swallowed the BM. He then proceeded to attack the rest of the party, which triggered Mind Spike. Luckily, the Behir still had plenty of hitpoints, so I played it intelligently enough to realize that he couldn't keep attacking the BM's allies without getting major hurt, so the Behir spit out the BM.

Extremely funny and entertaining combat.