Paladins & Implements

[Zephrin the Lost]

Hey all-

Pretty basic question here that I'm sure has been asked before. Are there feats, items or other options that allow a paladin to use a weapon as an implement and gain the advantages of such? So use implement powers through a magic sword and gain the enchantment bonus if not the proficiency bonus, etc, or is the only way to boost those powers by buying a magic holy symbol?

(I mean before the Holy avenger comes into your life. )

Thanks!

--Z

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hey all-

Pretty basic question here that I'm sure has been asked before. Are there feats, items or other options that allow a paladin to use a weapon as an implement and gain the advantages of such? So use implement powers through a magic sword and gain the enchantment bonus if not the proficiency bonus, etc, or is the only way to boost those powers by buying a magic holy symbol?

Thanks!

--Z

Well, the simplest way is to get something like a Crusader's Weapon. There are a couple other weapons that will also work as implements.

EDIT: Note also that the Rules Compendium p113 has this to say "If a character does have proficiency with an implement, he or she can use it with any of his or her implement powers." It is a bit unclear how this is intended to mesh with feats, class features, etc which were written before Essentials where the assumption was that without specific exceptions an implement could only work with a specific set of powers. It seems like technically the wording of the older stuff is more specific. OTOH it seems like this statement is intended to end "implement madness" by making all implements usable for whatever you would need an implement for. In the later case any particular implement is at most one feat away.

Note that the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat doesn't put any limitations on how you can use the acquired implement proficiency anyhow. Thus currently a Paladin could take AIP (you would need an MC feat to become arcane first), then pick a Swordmage implement and use it with any implement power of any class. Since swords are such implements this does allow you to be capable of using any sword with Paladin powers. Depending on how you look at the changes in RC you might also be able to get away with just taking something like Heart of the Blade.

 

[Oates]

One answer could be versatile expertise

Heroic Tier
Benefit: Choose a weapon group and an implement type. You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls both when using a weapon from the chosen group and when using an implement of the chosen type. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, choose a different weapon group and a different implement type.

Published in Player's Handbook 3, page(s) 184.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One answer could be versatile expertise

Yeah, but it doesn't grant you proficiency (with either a weapon or an implement). It grants you an attack bonus, but you can't wield an implement at all without proficiency. It is a feat a Paladin may well want as it was pretty much made for them, but you'll at least need something like MC Swordmage or a Crusader's Weapon (or Holy Avenger) etc first.

 

[jbear]

Yeah, the 'easiest way' without limiting yourself to one kind of magic sword is to multi class into Swordmage, or even Assassin or Monk. This gives you proficiency with their implements which you can (now) use with any implement power you know.

Monk and Assassin Implements are 'weapons with which they are proficient'.
Swordmage Implements are 'any light or heavy military blade'

You'll need to invest 13 in DEX to multiclass into Assassin or Monk:
Asassin: Feat 'Acolyte of the Veil' (CBuilder only)
Monk: Feat 'Monastic Disciple' (PHB3 or CBuilder)
Swordmage Multiclass requires 13 INT: Feat 'Blade Initiate' (Forgotten Realms Players Guide or CBuilder)

 

[Oates]

Yeah, but it doesn't grant you proficiency (with either a weapon or an implement). It grants you an attack bonus, but you can't wield an implement at all without proficiency. It is a feat a Paladin may well want as it was pretty much made for them, but you'll at least need something like MC Swordmage or a Crusader's Weapon (or Holy Avenger) etc first.

True ... *facepalm*

 

[MatthewJHanson]

If you worship Moradin and want to use an axe, hammer, or pick, there's also Symbol of the Sonnlinor.

 

[BobTheNob]

This is asked for alot, and at first I agreed with the question. I have to admit that after playing, I dont see the need. If the DM is handing out adequate amount of treasure (or even better using inherent bonus), your paladin will have an adequate holy symbol. Holy symbols are unique in that they have their own "slot" (i.e. you dont have to give up on another item to wear them) so they wont impede your weapon options.

I do appreciate the thematic desire, but there shouldn't be any mechanical shortfall.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is asked for alot, and at first I agreed with the question. I have to admit that after playing, I dont see the need. If the DM is handing out adequate amount of treasure (or even better using inherent bonus), your paladin will have an adequate holy symbol. Holy symbols are unique in that they have their own "slot" (i.e. you dont have to give up on another item to wear them) so they wont impede your weapon options.

I do appreciate the thematic desire, but there shouldn't be any mechanical shortfall.

Depends on the game. If the DM is sticking close to the parcel system then maintaining a suitable enhancement on a separate holy symbol is a drain on the character's finances just to keep even with all-weapon or all-implement characters.

 

[BobTheNob]

Depends on the game. If the DM is sticking close to the parcel system then maintaining a suitable enhancement on a separate holy symbol is a drain on the character's finances just to keep even with all-weapon or all-implement characters.

Granted.

Even so, whats the problem with house ruling? If this isnt an RPGA character, just talk to the DM, see if he will allow either of a) a feat to allow use of sword as an implement or (preferably) b) Revoke your characters proficiency with holy symbols as a trade for using a sword as an implement.

This is not an unreasonable thing to ask for and it stops you from having to make thematic choices (like mc'ing swordmage!) you might not otherwise want to make.

Good DM's know when to follow the rule AND when to bend them.