Paladins - likes and dislikes?

[Kalendraf]

Likes:

- Having a knightly code of conduct (but details need to be clarified w/ DM)
- Holy warrior, gaining certain divine skills and powers
- Utilizing charisma for more than just social skills

Dislikes:

- Detect Evil (either remove this or fix it somehow)
- Mount (make it more of an option, not such a core part of the class)
- Limited customization
- Lay on hands, cure disease abilities seem too weak.
- Turn ability is too limited to be of much use.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

- Turn ability is too limited to be of much use.

You would be wrong for the somewhat convoluted reason that the Paladin has high Cha and therefore can make good use of Divine feats, unlike many Clerics. In fact I would find the Paladin virtually unplayable except for the big boost from Divine Might.

Both the Turning mechanics and the Paladin class seem pretty sloppy IMO. And my disagreement with your straightforward impression is a symptom of a larger problem.

 

[Endur]

Paladins are AWESOME.

I can't think of anything I'd change about the 3.5e Paladin class.

Well, ok, I do think it could be powered up a bit (more smiting, a slightly different mount mechanic). And there are some abilities that aren't tremendously useful (remove disease and spellcasting are more flavor than beneficial). But generally, no changes.

 

[babomb]

My biggest problem with the paladin is that the PHB doesn't say anything like "You should discuss the details of your paladin's code of conduct with the DM.". It should also discuss this in the DMG.

I remove the multiclass restriction for both paladin and monk. If there should be any multiclass restriction, it should be on multiclassing INTO the class, not out of it.

I LIKE the pokemount change. I tweak it for flavor, but it's something the paladin sorely needed (though I wouldn't object to making it an optional feature since it may be a poor fit for some campaigns).

I agree that remove disease a small number of times a week is pretty, well, weak, as are the spells. I've been toying with ditching the spells (which would reduce MAD) and giving the paladin supernatural abilities (such as the 2e protection from evil aura).

 

[Plane Sailing]

Bad things:

Multiclassing restriction. Just a stupid idea (along with the monks multiclassing restriction)

Code of Conduct. Too nebulous, too ill-defined, effects are too nasty (it isn't as if the paladin is a powerhouse who needs to be reigned in, after all! He's just balanced against other classes).

Awkward things:

Remove Disease. Too useless, just use a spell.

Detect Evil. Too open to abuse.


IMC I redefined Detect Evil in the following way, which seemed to work pretty well. It was an always on, 30ft radius sixth sense in the presence of supernatural evil. i.e. if something with an [evil] aura is within 30ft the paladin gets a 'hairs rising on the back of his neck' sensation. He can't pinpoint where the evil is, but he knows that something wicked this way comes. This worked great in a roleplaying sense, and it helpfully differentiated between evil merchants and EEEEEEEVIL demons.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

and giving the paladin supernatural abilities (such as the 2e protection from evil aura).

Wasn't that only when holding an unsheathed holy sword?

 

[Fishbone]

The MAD really isn't that necessary. Just make the casting Charisma dependant. Then the class still has 3 stats to worry about (Strength, Charisma, Constitution). But no, wisdom dictates casting. So a class with 3 core stat worries has to make his wisdom 14 to cast. Boo, Half caster level and the MAD associated from spellcasting make the casting not worth it. Making it solely charisma based is too powerful. And why should a violent sword and boarding full plated crusader be able to cast spells anyhow? In history class I don't recall Saladin casting Cure Moderate Wounds at 10th caster level in the heat of battle. It rings false. I know Dungeons and Dragons is "High Magic" but does that mean every other bloody class and prestige class needs to be able to cast spells? Remove Disease, whoopity doo. I'm really down on the Paladin being able to cast spells. Give it Leadership or Sense Motive or oratory/rhetorical skills, more skills at creation, boosts to skills, bump its HD, beef up the mount, something, ANYTHING other than spellcasting. I also would like a more Zealot approach, but the Favored Soul has that on lock right now(Class is fantastic, ought to be core). As is it seems every Paladin is a LG blue eyed blonde haired Human clanger riding his unicorn or dire lion.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Wisdom isn't really necessary for a Paladin.

Start with Wis = 11 so you can get those 1st level spells, and a +2 Wis item by the time you are 8th and a +4 Wis item by the time you are 14th doesn't seem out of the bounds of possibility.

 

[Treebore]

One, I am glad to find a topic where I agree to some fair degree with just about everyones opinion.

I agree that Multi-classing shouldn't be so restricted. In fact i think restrictions should be completely decided by the DM. Wait! They are!


I also agree that the CoC shouldn't dissallow sneaking or the use of non-lethal poisons. So when I was the DM, you could sneak and allow the use of non-lethal poisons.

Associating with evil: yes, for the purpose of trying to convert them, or to accomplish harm against even greater evil.

Smite Evil sucks!! I like +1 to hit a damage versus evil creatures for every 2 levels of Paladin.
Is much better. I also saw a +4 to hit and +2d6 damage on every attack that I liked.

Immune to disease and cure disease are pretty lame. I do heal instead, except HP's. Only conditions. So a paladin is immune to disease by virtue of being able to heal himself, and it is a bit more useful all around.

Holy Avengers give an SR of 10 + 1/level of the Paladin. I have always viewed them as the ultimate enemy of evil spellcasters. So when I want them to be they get a Holy Avenger. They are also relics in my games.Edit: I also have it do Greater Dispelling 5/day or once per 2 levels of the Paladin, whichever is greater. Plus the spell operates just as written. The spell is not a relic!

I agree that Paladins should be a PrC, but I can live with it not being one.

Detect Evil: I have no problem with it but understand why it can be.

Pokemounts: Nope!! But I also make sure the holy mount is powerful enough to hang with a Paladin the level of the character. Plus they are always highly intelligent. That way they can take care of themsleves when the Paladin has to leave them behind. Plus they are usually able to take care of the other "normal" mounts.

I take it some of you haven't noticed the alternate rules for non-spellcasting paladins and rangers in Complete Warrior? Or is that C. Divine? Its one of them.

 

[Fishbone]

I'd like something in the core rules, with casting optional, rather than having to lay down 20 to 30 dollars for something I won't even be allowed to use in campaigns. And could somebody please tell me why they cast friggin' spells in the first place? Its goofy and totally unneeded. The variant mounts found in the DMG are pretty hardcore. Unicorns, Rhinos, and Drie Lions? RAWK \M/! Its one of my favorite parts of the class.