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Parties screwed without an Int-based PC?

Keenath

Explorer
I didn't really read the whole thread, so I'll just share my thoughts on the matter.

In my games, nobody has to worry about finding or identifying magic items. Most magic items are obviously magical and/or valuable, whether it's a sword with a leering vampire's face on the hilt or an axe with gold filigree scrollwork down the edges or a silver-embroidered robe that shimmers like water in the torchlight. They don't necessarily glow or anything, but they're clearly above and beyond the level of average weaponsmithing. Even items that aren't necessarily pretty are usually distinctive -- a pair of Gloves of Ogre Power are made with truly massive studs and such that will naturally draw the eye. But even if they're not visually startling, handling magic items immediately informs you that they're magic. Maybe it's tingle when you touch them or just an ineffable sense of power, but you'll just know. And I usually just go ahead and tell the players what it is, too. If they find a vampiric longsword, there's no clear benefit to me witholding that information, so I don't.

That's what I do, and I've never had a problem -- in fact, there's nothing in the book that suggests this is not the default assumption. None of the uses of Arcana have anything to do with identifying items! You can identify conjurations, zones, rituals, and "magical effects" that are explicitly not powers, rituals, or items. Nothing said about IDing items, there. The last use is "detect magic", but even then the benefit is really detecting magic at range and seeing through walls with it.

I use Detect Magic sort of like healing surges. If you want to figure out what magic items are involved in a battle, you use Arcana and so forth and you learn that the leader's axe is magical and probably some basic info about what it does (for example "it drains life from felled foes to bolster the wielder", but not "he gains 10 temporary HP when he drops an enemy"). After the guy's dead and you're handling his axe, no check is necessary to figure out that the axe is magic and what it does.

So on that level, my party never just "walks by" a magic item by accident.


Now, sometimes they avoid an encounter entirely, or defeat it in a non-combat fashion, or some similar thing that aces them out of getting the loot. In that case, I usually just handle it on the fly:

The big question is: Did they defeat the encounter? If they got past it with skills or talking, or if they drove the enemy into retreat without actually slaying them all, they still defeated the encounter. They earned the treasure, so I'll just add it to the reward for a later encounter. I tend to work on a feast-and-famine reward structure anyway, so they go through several encounters with little or no reward and then find a treasure vault or hoard later that adds up to the same amount. (It's more fun to find two cool items and thousands of GP than to get that same quantity piecemealed out over a half-dozen fights!)

If they didn't defeat the encounter -- for example, they just didn't go into that room or something -- they just miss out on that treasure. If that fight's reward was going to go into a hoard, I deduct that value. It usually works just fine, because they also missed out on that XP and are thus going to need one extra fight to level up anyway.

There are cases where that causes issues, like if they walk right past a fight where the bad guy has a cool weapon or item that's part of the encounter (rather than inert treasure); but if that happens I'll either try to throw that enemy in later somewhere else or just give up and give them the item as part of a hoard, depending on the situation. Sometimes I can just move the guy to a different location and make the PCs fight him anyway, or have them face him on the road later (sometimes with a little species swapping) as a bandit-king or some such thing who wants what they found.

Oh, I should mention, it's not usually possible to miss a hoard. I put those in battles that the PCs can't avoid, either because it's the boss battle they have to do to finish the adventure, or because it's on the way to that final battle and they have no choice but to go through it. Or I'll have another NPC tell them where the treasure is, which is usually plenty of motivation for my group to go find it.
 

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WalterKovacs

First Post
I remember when 4e first came out and people were complaining that you could identify magic items in a short rest with no magical ability whatsoever.

In general, considering the way that the economy works in 4e, just about every magic item was probably created for the purpose of being used by adventurers, and were later last as those adventurers probably died. There is a certain market in retrieving these lost items which stores can then resell.

As items meant to be used, magic weapons are meant to be used by fighters, rogues, paladins, etc ... they aren't going to be pretty straight forward, and "idiot proof" by wizard standards. In general, someone should be able to have a chance of noticing something that would be useful for their class, especially in terms of the most important stuff (i.e. good armor, a good weapon, an implement). The other magic items might be harder to spot. Belt slot, gloves, foot slot items, etc may be harder to figure out (and certain wondrous items could be very difficult to find).

One possible solution is to have more than enough treasure available to find, and what they get is in part determined by how hard it is to find. You can still give them the same packages, but if they succeed on their arcana check they might find the exact item they were 'hoping for', instead of a similar level item that is passable, but not exactly what they wanted.

It's one thing to punish a group for not covering a whole (they are going to have other problems in lacking intelligence, they'll have a hard time identifying arcane creatures, there are skill challenges/traps that need arcana, not to mention other intelligence based things, especially religion. They'll be bad, in general, at rituals that don't involve wisdom (heal/nature) or don't require checks.)

Having "don't get full treasure" as a consequence of dumping intelligence (when you pretty much have to take an intelligence based class, primary or secondary, to get good enough for it to matter) is a bit too far.

Not to mention that if there is any class taking 20 in the primary stat it's the wizard, so it hardly punishes him for maxing out Int.
 

Lurker37

Explorer
Almost everyone in this thread so far has missed the point completely.

DMG 125 says that over the course of a level a party of five should find 4 magic items.


Read that again.

DMG 125 says that over the course of a level a party of five should find 4 magic items.

That's "find".

Not "have a chance to find".

If the party walks past an item that is part of the treasure packages in that area, then it is the DM's responsilbility to put that item in again somewhere else where they will find it. This also goes for a treasure hoard in a cave the players never explored because they found a different way to resolve the adventure. The math of this game hinges on PCs getting the appropriate amount of magical bonuses, and that means either getting the items or getting the gold required to trade for those items. It's even more important than XP, because missed XP just means you level slower, but a level 10 party without any magical items (or the means to buy them) is going to be at a serious disadvantage.

That's why there are no rules for 'noticing an item is magical'. Failure simply is not an option, so no chance to fail a skill check is included. The party absolutely must get that item. Making them make a skill check to get it isn't following RAW - it's adding a house rule to gimp the party.
 
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Herschel

Adventurer
You miss the most important word: Should. That means it's not a hard, fast rule but a guideline. It also means one character will NOT get a magic item over the course of a level even with this distribution guideline. Heck, good tactics mean more than magic items in so many instances and encounters can be designed around magic items had.

Characters aren't "entitled" to magic items, but they will likely still find sufficient ones IF they work around their restrictions and it makes encounter building slightly easier if they do find a way.
 

Nail

First Post
Cool. So opinion isn't as one-sided as it appeared at first. Thanks folks!

On p. 223 (top), it says "you can determine the properties and powers of a magic item during a short rest". There's no check.

However, in the description of the Arcana skill, it says:

Sense the Presence of Magic: 1 minute.
✦ DC: DC 20 + one-half the level of a magic item,
power (conjuration or zone), ritual, or magical phenomenon
within range.

So.....you can sense magic items at distance if you'd like, but otherwise, just pick the items up, handle them for a while, and you'll know what they do.

You don't need an Arcana check in your party to "find magic items".
 

James McMurray

First Post
Nail, did you read the whole thread? That's been covered. your quote is about identifying, not finding.

In any case, a decision was made a page or so ago.
 

Why not treat this as a feature rather than as a bug?

On the one hand, many people now complain that Int isn't as useful as it used to be. Here, your telling us that all the PCs dumped Int and now can't find magic items with Arcana. Well Hello! Don't dump Int then!

Cheers

Haha very Zen, Grasshopper!

I haven't made a player 'check' to find magic items since, well I can't remember. I just hand 'em over with the stats now that they are all in the PHB (3E I made 'em work a bit harder to get the stats)
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I added an Identify Ritual to my house rules.

I think that in some cases, the game has been simplified TOO much.

It takes an hour to use the Identify Ritual and some Residuum, so a PC can do it mid-adventure if they want.

I just find it kind of inverted to make identifying items automatic and casting Tensor's Floating Disk to be a 10 minute ritual.

I feel the same way about finding them automatically as well. Some items should stand out in a crowd, but it takes away many scenarios from the DM when the simple vase that has been in the family for centuries cannot be a magic item because someone would have not only noticed, but would have quickly known what it does as well.
 


Ryujin

Legend
Finding an item (magic or not) is Perception. Sensing magic items at a distance is Arcana. You seemed to be confusing the two. Is everything okay now? ;)

Finding an item (magic or not) is Perception.

Knowing that an item is magic or not is Arcana.

Identifying the properties of one magic item per short rest (assuming that you know it's magic in nature) requires no skill.

If you can identify the properties of one magic item per short rest, that presumes you know the item that you're examining to be magical in nature.
 

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