Parties screwed without an Int-based PC?

[Nail]

Yep. The wording and emoticon were just to indicate an answer based on total and utter smartassedness for levity sake. No other intent.

Ah!

 

[Herschel]

So the upshot to all this is:
If the DM wants to screw the players over for lacking an Arcana-trained character, then yes, the players are screwed. If the DM doesn't want to screw the players over, then no, they're not screwed.

This statement is a straw man based on the assumption the players didn't have the CHOICE of an INT-based character, which is clearly false. That's the only way a DM would be "screwing over" the players.

They clearly had the choice of Int-based characters, heck the Swordmage is a terrific Int-based defender if you don't want an Int-based spellchucker.

As a DM, creating a campaign is about fun, but that includes challenging players.

 

[keterys]

So, if you have a group that all don't want to play an arcane character, which one do you make the game less fun for?

Psst - all martial parties actually _work_ now. There's no need to have Arcana. It just means you take a different route in certain challenges.

 

[urzafrank]

This statement is a straw man based on the assumption the players didn't have the CHOICE of an INT-based character, which is clearly false. That's the only way a DM would be "screwing over" the players.

They clearly had the choice of Int-based characters, heck the Swordmage is a terrific Int-based defender if you don't want an Int-based spellchucker.

As a DM, creating a campaign is about fun, but that includes challenging players.

The rules ask the DM to try to make the game as fun as possible for his group. Cakewalks might be be fun for a few minutes but not for a whole session.

Exactly who thinks it is fun to sit around the table trying to figure out which way to go or which of these rusted swords are magical?

I am actually looking for an answer to the above question.

 

[KarinsDad]

The rules guidelines ask the DM to try to make the game as fun as possible for his group. Cakewalks might be be fun for a few minutes but not for a whole session.

Fixed that for you.

Exactly who thinks it is fun to sit around the table trying to figure out which way to go or which of these rusted swords are magical?

It depends on the situation.

It's often fun for both the DM and players to have the DM not spoon feed his players.

Solving challenges is not just about rolling dice. Sometimes, it's about taking the available knowledge and making good or bad decisions because of it.

We had a session where we had a Sudoku puzzle that needed to be solved.

If we could not have solved it, we would not have gotten past the magical barrier.

As a player, I would have been annoyed if we could not have solved it and the DM then pulled some DM Fiat out of his butt to ensure that we could solve it.


The 4E designers have simplified the game in the name of "fun" in many ways. That does not mean that DMs do not houserule the game back to some semblance of previous editions or other game system or even their own thought processes to remove some of those simplifications.

Every group has a different idea of fun. Yours does not necessarily match mine or anyone else's.

One has to take the DM guidelines with a grain of salt and use what works for your own game. There are several sections in the DMG that I consider flat out bad gaming advice that doesn't work for my game.

 

[Nail]

This statement is a straw man based on the assumption the players didn't have the CHOICE of an INT-based character, which is clearly false. That's the only way a DM would be "screwing over" the players.

Errr....?

It's true that a well-balanced party is the D&D archetype. But are you claiming that if the players don't cover all of the bases, the DM is powerless to not "screw them over"?

Keenath's post said it's up to the DM how badly the PCs will miss the areas they don't have covered. I find it hard to find fault with that sentiment.

 

[Nail]

We had a session where we had a Sudoku puzzle that needed to be solved.

Neat! A DM of mine a while back put one of those in front of us...and none of us had ever seen a Sudoku, so we couldn't figure it out. At all. Not even a little bit.

I would have been "disappointed" if we wouldn't have been able to continue the adventure because we couldn't solve a puzzle in RL.

 

[KarinsDad]

Neat! A DM of mine a while back put one of those in front of us...and none of us had ever seen a Sudoku, so we couldn't figure it out. At all. Not even a little bit.

I would have been "disappointed" if we wouldn't have been able to continue the adventure because we couldn't solve a puzzle in RL.

Which is why each DM has to play the game based on what he thinks is fun and challenging for his group.

In our case, my wife was having a blast solving the puzzle. She hardly let anyone else near it.


I was once in a dungeon were our group was suddenly trapped. The DM kept trying to get the players to move through the dungeon whereas the players were trying to escape. The goals were opposed to each other. Once the players found a way out, they turned around and explored the dungeon. DMs should try to understand the motivations of their players and work accordingly, but at the same time, a DM is a player at the table too. He too has to have fun.

 

[Nail]

In our case, my wife was having a blast solving the puzzle. She hardly let anyone else near it.

As it happens, right after our encounter with the strange puzzle, I went out and learned how to do Sudoku. I've been an addict ever since.

DMs should try to understand the motivations of their players and work accordingly, but at the same time, a DM is a player at the table too. He too has to have fun.

Preach it, brother!

 

[Herschel]

So, if you have a group that all don't want to play an arcane character, which one do you make the game less fun for?

Psst - all martial parties actually _work_ now. There's no need to have Arcana. It just means you take a different route in certain challenges.

I'm not sure what you are asking. As a DM, I'm going to throw in some Arcana stuff just to challenge them a bit. It won't be high DC stuff, but something to let them discover that Arcana is useful. Same with Streetwise, Bluff, whatever. Then, if a character dies and a new one is rolled, the players will know there's a niche they can rock at that's not filled. If they then fill that niche, my options as a DM increase greatly and they get a place to shine solo.