Pastoralists vs Agrarians vs Nomads

[TheLostSoul]

The norse were thwarted by the native americans (Skraelings? sp?). Arguably it was disease more than technology that allowed later Europeans to dominate but even if you go for the technology theory, I would think that the Norse experience suggests that if you have more comparable ability (as determined by magic in this case), it would be a more level playing field.

I think the biggest difference in the end between the different society types would be the population level each type allows. Agrarians can be much more dense, make many more of anything including casters, adventurer bands, and larger warbands (aka armies ). But with the right terrain and enough casters, I could imagine hunter-gatherers holding off agrarians, especially if the latter comes across a big sea in smallish numbers.

I think you could make a good case that the HG might have more casters (at least of the druid/cleric/shaman variety) than agrarians. Might even things out a bit.

The numbers of Norse that made landfall was very few and, as far as we know, there were never plans to make a permanent settlement in Vinland. The expeditions to North America was mainly to get supplies to treeless Greenland

Oh... And the Skraelings attacked them because they were poisoned by the Norse (they were lactose intolerant).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, as I recall- Greenland and Vinland were not nearly as icy in the days of the Vikings as they are now. Trees and grapevines were definitely growing...There were even permanent structures.

However, "The Little Ice Age" radically altered the climate, making those lands the way they are today.

 

[Samloyal23]

If you look at the Bible there are some good examples of how a semi-nomadic pastoral society can overcome an agricultural one through the use of clerical magic in the Book of Exodus. Moses crushes the bronze weaponed Egyptians through a series of epic level miracles, then he, Aaron, and Joshua combine guerrilla war tactics with clerical magic and the help of an artifact, the Ark of the Covenant, to defeat the Canaanite city-states, eventually taking over the Holy Land. Many of the standard clerical spells in D&D are derived directly from this tale. From a gaming viewpoint it has a lot to recommend it...

 

[Haltherrion]

The numbers of Norse that made landfall was very few and, as far as we know, there were never plans to make a permanent settlement in Vinland. The expeditions to North America was mainly to get supplies to treeless Greenland

True enough but still evidence that at that level of technology, the norse did not have the upper hand. The Spanish conquest was aided by disease of course but the relative numbers were probably not very different in many cases (conquerers to conquered). For instance, Technotitlan was one of the larger cities in the world at the time of its conquest.

After the initial contact and after native americans gained some access to firearms, it was more the force of numbers and the ability of a western society to maintain armed forces indefinitely but if Europeans had been more forcibly repelled early on, (and maybe their divine casters mitigated the worst of the plagues?) who knows if things would have gone the same.

 

[jgbrowning]

This is a very complicated subject and there are no easy answers. I am an archaeology student specialized in Scandinavian pre-historic cultures.

snip...

Good, thoughtful post.

joe b.

 

[William Ronald]

True enough but still evidence that at that level of technology, the norse did not have the upper hand. The Spanish conquest was aided by disease of course but the relative numbers were probably not very different in many cases (conquerers to conquered). For instance, Technotitlan was one of the larger cities in the world at the time of its conquest.

After the initial contact and after native americans gained some access to firearms, it was more the force of numbers and the ability of a western society to maintain armed forces indefinitely but if Europeans had been more forcibly repelled early on, (and maybe their divine casters mitigated the worst of the plagues?) who knows if things would have gone the same.

One must also recall that the Spaniards were able to get several peoples subject to the Aztecs to join in their efforts to oppose the Aztecs. See Spanish Conquest in the History of Mexico article at Wikipedia.

Still, I think agrarian societies would have an advantage in producing larger number of spell casters. Possibly such a society would develop spells to try to improve agricultureal production. (Mage hand can be used for weeding and an unseen servant can be used for many mundane tasks.)

 

[Haltherrion]

Put another way, if the native americans had been a bunch of druids, shamans, and rangers, would a bunch of european fighters, clerics and mages have had such an easy time with them?

You got me thinking about settings

Take your NA and Europe about 1492 as analogs. In the Europe analog, you have high density agrarian societies with the wherewithal to have pushed dragons and other critters to the margins. In the NA analog, the hunter-gathers are much lower pop denisty, lower even than the actual pop density. Dragons, including ancient ones are much more common in NA as are other 'monsters.' The human HGs just get by on the margins.

Europeans land and make short work of the local humans. The local ancient dragon notices. He has never previously paid much attention to the annoying little native humans but he recognizes the higher arcane magic europeans as a threat and beats them back to their boats.

Over the next few decades, the dragons become protectors of the natives as both battle the invaders. It is a symbiosis of convenience. Maybe for some of the ancient chromatic wyrms, it is an ugly arrangement on the border of slavery. For the metallic dragons, perhaps it is a bit more comensual.

Anyway, just a thought. I always like more dynamic settings were things are evolving (like this dragon-native raltionship in this case.)

Might consider that for a future setting

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Over the next few decades, the dragons become protectors of the natives as both battle the invaders. It is a symbiosis of convenience. Maybe for some of the ancient chromatic wyrms, it is an ugly arrangement on the border of slavery. For the metallic dragons, perhaps it is a bit more comensual.

Or, instead of dragons, it could be things like the Thunderbirds of Amerind legends (or you could have Thunderbirds = Dragons in your campaign...). The Wendigo and Manitou could go after the unsuspecting White Men...or perhaps the great fish-monster Mashenomak will drag down the boats of the Europeans.

In other words, there are more than enough powerful magical beasts & spirits in Native American legends that could fill the role of the dragons in your scenario without using monsters of "European" origins.

Another spin on this was proposed by Harry Turtledove in his Darkness books. One country had devised a form of necromantic magic in which they would sacrifice humans for spell energy and create massive, army-swallowing earthquakes, but there was one land in which the Gods barred the evil sorceries of the invaders from working properly. In fact, they turned that magic back upon the casters.

Raven, Coyote, and other Native American deities may simply not allow the magics or technologies of the invading Europeans to function properly, perhaps making the American continent into a Wild Magic Zone as far as the invaders were concerned, while empowering their own spellcasters to greater levels of potency.

 

[el-remmen]

Great thread.

 

[Haltherrion]

Raven, Coyote, and other Native American deities may simply not allow the magics or technologies of the invading Europeans to function properly, perhaps making the American continent into a Wild Magic Zone as far as the invaders were concerned, while empowering their own spellcasters to greater levels of potency.

There's a whole realm of possibilities if you postulate different gods on each continent. One would imagine they would look after their own and protect them from invaders. Could also make for an interesting setting concept.

But I was using NA and Europe in a loose sense, not as a way to pull in NA Indian culture although that's always an option. On one continent, you have "advanced" agrarian civilizations who have banished the monsters to the borders. On another, humans aren't dominate, they live in small HG bands as best they can with the monsters. When the advance guard of the first continent arrive they assume that the humans are pathetic, weak and a pushover but find the monsters and natives allying to push repulse them.

It's just a thought. The original poster was asking about ramifications of the different society types. Just was working one take on it from the starting point of how the different societies tend to work with their environment. The agrarian societies tend to reshape their surroundings (banish monsters?). The HGs tend to live in their surroundings (monsters still very much around?). Using monsters in a loose sense.