Pathfinder OGL/3.5 RPG system from Paizo

[buzz]

FWIW, I give Paizo a lot of credit for giving the playtest a whole year. It honestly would be easier and more profitable in the short term to rush a 3.75 book out just before, or right around, 4e. Holding off on the final product until 2009 is a risk, but one worth taking if what they really want is a solid product.

 

[CleverName]

I think this is a mistake on Paizo's part, but I wish them the best. I completely understand why they did not want to throw down 5k for the still mythical 4e SRD and that they were going to continue 3.x support until '09. (Personally, I thought WotC should have given them a break on the $ for yanking Dungeon and Dragon from them -- I'm far more skeptical of DDI than the actual 4e ruleset...)

As far as this sending any kind of "message" to WotC, you are dreaming. I guarantee you that 4e will make a ton of money for the next 2-3 quarters. They aren't really looking for much sales support from other companies until 09 or 2010. In fact, they actively discouraged it with their buy-in tactic.

I plan to buy 4e and play it before I make up my mind for good. If I don't like it I will most likely go on to another system entirely or go back to 3.x, unlike some D&D players, I've always played a lot of RPGS. This 3.75, or whatever just seems like a divergent path off of a divergent (withering?) path. I hope the niche market of a niche market works out for them. I have my doubts.

Again, I wish them my best, but they definitely rode off waaaay too soon and definitely without me...

 

[Ourph]

I mean, timing aside, what is this other than yet another d20 fantasy RPG? Looking at the alpha doc, it's about as 3.5 as Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, or Spycraft/FantasyCraft. (Or even Book of Experimental Might) I.e., you're not going to be using your 3.5 books without at least little massaging.

I have to agree with buzz here. I would laud Paizo's move if they had simply decided to continue to create 3.5 compatible Pathfinder adventures. Going into the rulebook business seems 1) unnecessary and 2) disadvantageous. If they continued to just support 3.5, they'd keep all the people who intend to play 3.5 and would likely also garner a lot of support from people who intend to continue using the alternate PHB games like Conan, Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, etc. Those people are likely already accustomed to converting straight 3.5 stuff to their game of choice, so 3.5 products would be more useful than 3.75 or 4e products by far. By creating another alternate 3.5 ruleset and then switching Pathfinder over to it, they're just further limiting their pool of supporters. I suppose they think the open playtest will create some kind of customer buy-in effect (it seemed to work OK for Castles & Crusades) but I hardly think that will compensate for losing the more widespread appeal of a straight, RAW, 3.5 product based on the SRD. I don't understand this move. :\

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If the alpha doc is any indication, they are indeed selling you a new RPG.

Again, no they are not. They are giving it away for free.

They would like to sell me either the softcover or hardcover version eventually-- and they probably will.

Sure, but let me turn the tables again, and posit that, had 3.75 come from WotC instead of Paizo, a lot of the same people who are lauding Paizo now would probably be griping non-stop about WotC's evil empire.

You're not turning the tables on me at all, actually-- I've said much the same myself. WotC is in a tough position, because 4e had to be functionally different enough from 3.75 to justify itself.

It's my opinion that the rules changes alone would have been sufficient for the existing player base. I mean, let's face it, nobody wants to DM (prep or play) high-level 3.5 D&D. I avoid this problem myself by gaming exclusively in the sweet spot. But it's a huge design wart. Probably the biggest. Speed and ease of play. If they had simply stuck to the mechanical changes, there would be the usual small subset of, "I ain't spendin' another dollar!" complainers, but I think most people would have been eager adopters.

I'm not in that camp of whinging scrooges. I have money to spend. I don't mind buying new books. I love buying new RPG books, provided they cater to my tastes. Not exactly revelatory, I know. But the redesign of the D&D brand is not to my tastes. It turned a new purchase I was looking forward to, into an annoyance at best. I would have to strike all the goofy they added (tieflings, dragonborn, warlords, White Raven Assault, Golden Wyvern) and then add back all the stuff I would miss (gnomes, bards, druids, classic schools of magic-- the entire cosmology).

Nonetheless, the alpha doc looks pretty interesting. I'll keep my eyes peeled, despite the odds being nil that my group will ever play it.

I actually don't think the alpha doc goes far enough-- yet. But I realize it's just alpha. I won't be basing my purchasing decisions on the alpha but I can certainly base my level of overall interest (some of it in a train-wreck kind of way) on the chutzpah of the announcement itself.

EDIT: Ehh, who am I kidding. the gnome.

 

[elijah snow]

I disagree with this assessment. First, this annoucement does affect 4e because Paizo is one of the most (if not the most) significant independent publishers supporting the Dungeons and Dragons marketplace. So, not only are they taking a stand to support 3.5, they're also going to be less active in supporting the 4e market than they otherwise would have been.

Second, and more importantly, I disagree with your assessment of who will support the Pathfinder RPG. The answer is:

1) the multitude of gamers who think that 3.5 isn't broken and didn't need an upgrade, but might appreciate a little fine-tuning
2) the multitude of gamers who have an emotional, game-related, and/or financial investment in 3.5 and aren't willing to throw that away
3) the gamers who love the Pathfinder setting and adventures
4) the gamers who may be ambivalent about 3.5 but are underwhelmed by 4e's rules and changes to canon
5) the DMs who are happy with Eberron and the Forgotten Realms the way they are

Right now, there is a lot of buzz around it. But there is no difference between this announcement and say the publication of Arcana Evolved. And it will effect WotC about the same way, which is not at all.

Not to get political, but thinking that Paizo's announcement is siginificant is like saying that Ralph Nader running for president is significant.

Bear in mind that Pathfinder is NOT D&D. Or rather its D&D in the same way that Castles and Crusades is, or Arcana Evolved is, or any number of D&D fantasy clones.

Also bear in mind that 4e comes out in less than 3 months now, and Pathfinder doesn't come out for a WHOLE year! By that time, 4e will be firmly entrenched in the market as D&D and Pathfinder will be another 3.5 OGL d20 clone fighting for shelf space with True20 and Exalted. The gamer masses will have long since moved to D&D.

So, who will Paizo attract? They will attract the alternative gamer. The same people that bought AE, True20, McWOD, IH, Conan d20. This will be Paizo's customer base.

And that is not a bad place to be. Thats a good customer base that can support a company like Paizo. Right now Paizo has a lot of buzz, because its a known element. D&D 4 is still a few months off and still an unknown.

But come this time next year, the atmosphere will be markedly different. There will still be excited Paizo fans on the boards. And some 4e fans will likely pick up Pathfinder. I might even, if its cool enough. But ultimately it will have ZERO impact on WotC and 4e.

 

[Psion]

I have to agree with buzz here. I would laud Paizo's move if they had simply decided to continue to create 3.5 compatible Pathfinder adventures. Going into the rulebook business seems 1) unnecessary and 2) disadvantageous.

I suggest to you Paizo understands the market better than you do, then. How viable is publishing adventures and supplements for a game you can't buy? How can groups form with a game you have to tell them they have to go to ebay to get? This is less about viability of existing games and continued support of evolving and new groups.

I do, however, expect that many groups WILL continue to play 3.5 and buy Paizo adventures.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I'd just like to point out that IBM no longer manufactures IBM PCs. Nevertheless, the IBM PC is the market leader. It is possible that when WotC let the genie out of the bottle by releasing 3.0 under the OGL, they too ensured that they will eventually no longer be in the D&D business. Sure it will take years to happen, but given their parent company's tendency to cancel games that are making a profit and the innovation occurring in 3rd party publishing, it is a distinct possibility that the future of D&D may rest in the hands of companies like Paizo and Green Ronin.

Of course it is not my desire to see WotC get out of the D&D business, but based on what I'm reading online and the people I know in real life, there is a significant number of people who are bitter about the edition change this time around since it follows so close on the heels of 3.5 and have no intention to switch. It is possible that despite what WotC thinks and what the retailers are preparing for, 4th edition players might just be in the minority. If that's the case, existing 3.5 players will want continued support, and with Pathfinder, they will get it.

 

[jgbrowning]

I think this will be very successful.

joe b.

 

[dm4hire]

I think one of the advantages the way Paizo is presenting Pathfinder is that you will be able to use it as either a resource for your current 3.x products or as a stand alone OGL game and that is where it will shine the most. One thing I have often expressed disinterest in my entire 20+ years of playing D&D is that they continue to stick with 3 core books. There is no reason for it; two at most with additional MMs understandable over the years. If Paizo fully includes everything you need to play a basic Pathfinder game in just the one book that will make it worth buying just in itself. Being able to carry just one book while on the go and play a quick game with friends will be a high point to it if that's the case.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

With hopefully one major advantage: It's not just a set of OGL variant rules, it comes with adventures - and that's a key advantage over AE or IH, whose adventure support isn't that great (in my experience).

And a campagin setting. And maps, and tiles, and minis, and cards, and the whole plethora of add-on stuff that no other (to my knowledge) alt-3e producer has attempted.