Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Psionics (from Dreamscarred)

[Bacris]

It's interesting reading the spectrum of replies...

I've known folks that really dig the crystal theme of 3.x psionics, I've known others who detested it. Flavor, as always, is purely a matter of preference.

I think Andreas has the right angle of making the theme mutable. And we introduced something like this in High Psionics: Power Sources, changing the flavor of everything without a single mechanical ramification. Don't like psicrystals? Easy enough - your "companion" is a literal figment of your imagination brought into reality. Don't want crystal weapons? OK, they're made of some alternate type of metal / substance.

It's my opinion that too much of the gripe about psionics is about the flavor, rather than the mechanics. Especially when the flavor can be changed so easily!

I understand the line of reasoning of overlap with the core classes - but you have to admit, it's hard to have a truly separate class that doesn't overlap with others. I think the goal of having distinctly different is fine, as long as it isn't taken to an extreme.

Either way, I'm really excited to see this level of response so quickly about us doing Pathfinder Psionics - it's something Andreas and I have been discussing for probably a year or more, along with what we'd want to change and include into a "core" psionics book.

 

[kitsune9]

I haven't gotten into too much into psionics as my players don't really engage in them, but I use them as a DM. I pretty much like the system the way it is, but giving more is always a good thing.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

My three major wants:

1) Some type of "level 0" spell, much in the way that druids, priests, and wizards get their free orizons or cantrips

2) Give the poor Nomad some love

3) Non-horribly soulknives ;p

 

[Angellis_ater]

My three major wants:

1) Some type of "level 0" spell, much in the way that druids, priests, and wizards get their free orizons or cantrips

2) Give the poor Nomad some love

3) Non-horribly soulknives ;p

1. Already in the planning stages. We will most probably give a list of Talents, let players choose a few according to their class and focus and as long as they have psionic focus, they can manifest these powers.

2. In what way?

3. Well, whatya think of the update in Untapped Potential?

 

[Bacris]

My three major wants:
3) Non-horribly soulknives ;p

We've actually put out a variety of rules / variants / alternates for the soulknife - it's probably the most popular of the base classes in this regard. This includes a variant in Untapped Potential that is a slightly edited version of BlaineTog's fix from the old WotC forums, a series of feats to completely replace the soulknife, as well as a variety of alternate soulknives in High Psionics: Soulknives including a dual-wielding, throwing-themed, and strength-themed variants.

The only reason I mention this is that, with all the material we've already put out on the soulknife, and given that the one in Untapped Potential, combined with the mind blade feats options, I'd like to think we've covered that base pretty well and just need to tweak it to fit into the Pathfinder rule set.

 

[Alzrius]

In regards to the base psionic classes, I think there are several things that could be done to help make them more Pathfinder-esque. The obvious one (which needn't be said here, though I will) is to consolidate BAB/Hit Dice.

Beyond that, psions and wilders definitely each need to have a varying "theme" that can be selected when making a character - the way that all sorcerers have bloodlines and all wizards focus on an arcane school, psions should gain varying powers and abilities depending on what devotion they choose, and wilders should have some different set of themes that can be chosen (though I'm not sure what).

Contrary to popular belief, dead levels don't need to be completely eliminated. However, they should be sharply reduced - a good idea here is that at least half of a classes levels should have special powers of some sort (ideally, the "dead" levels are the ones where the character gains a new level of psionic powers, since then the player still gets something new at that level).

Every class needs a capstone ability. While I've heard that some people don't care for those too much, they're part of the PF design standard.

Those are some of the ways that I think you can make "Pathfinder psionics."

 

[Admiral Caine]

I've already posted at your forums, and briefly at Paizo's...

1.) Mostly I want balance with the Core Classes. Within reason. Just last night a Paizo Editor said that absolute balance makes for boring gameplay (and I personally think it's an impossible goal).. but we do need balance within all reason. Players and GM's should not view Psionics as an easy exploit. There has to be faith that the underlying rules are fair.

I know you feel that the XPH was balanced, and I'm not in a position to refute that. I'm just sayin'...

2.) I want such a book to embrace Pathfinder, not try to fix it. That means working with Paizo's design strategies. I really beat that into the ground at your own forums, and I'm happy with what you had to say- so I won't belabor it here.

3.) Streamlined gameplay and no excessive book keeping. I've heard it said over at Paizo that they wouldn't mind seeing psionics get away from the point system and adopt a slot system (for balance purposes and streamlining). However, *I* don't need to abandon points just because they said that. The trick is just keep the book keeping easy and streamline where you can.

Many will argue that the existing system just uses basic math, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. It's just basic math. The problem is, you put a player on the spot and they'll have a helluva time picking out the right dice to roll, let alone figure out their power attack. They're not stupid people by any measure, but the brain jams when you throw a spotlight on them.

Again, I'm actually reassuring you that a point system is okay.. just keep the book keeping straightforward.

(Disclaimer: I NEVER EVER used 3.5 psionics.. I'm speaking only to what my players tell me about their experiences.. so if I sound crazy I'm relaying their concerns second hand)

***********************

Side note: I would bet money that Paizo does not touch psionics in all of 2010. Based on something said last night, they may not touch it in 2011. If that's the case, I'm ready to support a 3rd party psioncis product for Pathfinder. There's no reason to wait for Psionics for 3 years just so Paizo can do it.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Now that I'm happily out of a hotel, in my new apartment, and have the internet all hooked up, I can go into detail

1) Awesome. Uh, that's more or less it.

2) It might just be me, but I've always found Nomad to be kinda lacking. A lot of their powers end up being "See previous power, but better!" They got a lot of the utility stuff that would, in 4e, be made into rituals. I think the big problem with Nomad is that a good number of their spells that you want to use only effect them. Nomad is the master of movement through space, yet only the egoist can push enemies ;p

3) I'm the guy who has the monk/soulknife/psychic acrobat with Xeph feats from their racial book ;p. For Soulknives, I think the only issue is that both monk and rogue got a power boost, so soulknife is trailing behind, and I think the big issue there is Psychic Strike. Its big advantage over sneak attack was that it could be used on a lot more enemies. However, with Paizo lowering the number of baddies immune to sneak attack, psychic strike falls behind hard, since it's an ability you can do once - maybe twice - a round.

I think the key here is to improve psychic strike somehow an give some abilities/feats/talents/what have you to help emphasis high mobility, be it bonuses to acrobatics or free whatever.

 

[Angellis_ater]

Our intention is to give each class a "synching" with Pathfinder in regards to Hit Points and Base Attack Bonus. In most cases it will mean that we upgrade the Hit Die, but we're not 100% sure on how to treat the Soulknife in this regard.

Each class will have some form of "build" available to it, the Psion most likely will have six of them (one for each devotion). We are considering how to implement this for the other classes, so if you have suggestions, come give them to us! Naturally, this will mean a "capstone" of some sort for the demi-epic 20th level.

We are also looking into giving the classes more "fun things" at the levels where they don't gain enough new simply from manifesting.

We will naturally do our best to streamline the product with Pathfinder and it's design goals, as well as keeping things balanced. As we stated before, we intend to keep the power points system, but ALSO offer an alternate, variant system, where a GM can choose to use a "power points per encounter" concept instead.

 

[johnnype]

Awesome news.

I agree that the XPH is pretty damn good. I'd go a bit farther and say that the only possible area the rules could use improvement on is the issue James Jacobs seems to bring up and that is NPC's with psionics (i.e. psionic monsters) and their lack of reason to hold back during an encounter and not blow all their power points against the PC's. A GM should be able to manage this type of thing but it seems to bug some people to the point that they decide not to allow psionics. The Expanded Psionics Handbook had an alternative to the rules as they are (essentially cutting the power points on monsters by half iirc). Not a big issue for me but I know some detractors harp on this issue quite a bit.

Other than that I really don't need psionics to be all that different from the XPH. I don't mind the use of crystals (people who do have been hanging out with too many hippies). How about precious stones (rubies, emeralds, amethysts and of course diamonds) instead of crystals? To me it's purely an aesthetic thing and it looks like you guys have already come up with a solution to change it for those who don't like it.

I don't need psions to be all that different from mages or wizards. Of course I don't see a need for them to carry around spell components or spell books or to walk around in wizard hats.

I don't really see the point of the soulknife as a class unto itself. Wouldn't a feat chain or tree for the psywarrior do the same thing?

Love the psiwarrior btw.

Love, love, love the idea of a non arcane or divine setting with psionics classes filling the space vacated by those missing. Love it.

A new race or two would be nice. Perhaps with a strong flavor and history the way Githyanki and Githzerai have.

I always liked the psionic rogue WotC created and posted to the website (it never saw print in an official book). If you haven't seen it let me know and I'll find it in the WotC website archives.

Do you guys have any thoughts on psionic combat (psion vs. psion)? We are all familiar I think with the criticisms (doesn't involve anyone else in the party, etc). I miss it. I always liked how tactical it was. White Dwarf magazine had a very interesting alternative must be 15+ years ago now. I still have the issue and was just perusing it again a few days ago. It was streamlined a bit from the basic AD&D rules and actually had a ton of flavor. I know Bruce Cordell came up with Mindscapes to address the issue but I never actually tried it in game.

I'm looking forward to your products. You've made me curious enough to look into your current releases especially the setting. Any place I should start?