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Iosue

Legend
I'm starting to get the feeling that their plans are a bit.. all over the place?
I really don't think they've even got the core right yet.
I think that's a little unfair. WotC has been totally up front that right now they are trying to get the core worked out, and that's not complete, and that's their main goal right now. If doesn't seem they've got the core right yet, that's because it's still a work in progress and their main focus right now.

All this other stuff comes from people asking them questions about stuff far down the line. Of course it's going to sound all over the place. Right now it's still ideas, spitballing, trying things out in internal playtest. When they actually put it out to be playtested, it's going to change again.

A lot of folks say that WotC doesn't have focus, doesn't have a clear design direction. I don't see that. I see the opposite. They seem focused on developing simple, yet versatile mechanics that can be scaled, or removed, to fit differing playstyles, or if such a mechanic cannot accommodate the demands of different groups, providing easy choices. They are attempting the interesting design feat of creating a game that is simple and flexible, and yet integrated, all the while keeping note of fan feedback and adjusting the game accordingly.
 

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Does anyone have the exact time at which this is mentioned?

19:30 through about 23.

Though the bit about how they want to start with story and then move to mechanics was somewhere else, not finding it yet.

EDIT: It's about minutes 17-19.
 
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Sadrik

First Post
Arg, keep thinking about this. 4 customizable classes and 8+ scripted niche classes... Soooo not what I am looking for.
 

Greg K

Legend
but the other classes to be more heavily story-based. For example, they're thinking of making rangers more like an actual organization (or more than one) with its own code of conduct.
This is, exactly, what I don't want. I don't want the designers'
"story" except in specific setting products.
 

Arytiss

First Post
This is, exactly, what I don't want. I don't want the designers' "story" except in specific setting products.

While I sympathise with your opinion, I can't help but disagree with it. The background flavour is an important part of a class. It allows us to distinguish, say, a Fighter with an Archery path, the sniper specialisation, and some form of wilderness background from a Ranger.
As a GM, it is entirely up to you as to wether you work with the fluff they provide, or create your own. One of the constant things that has been stated throughout thus far is that the designers want to ensure that the GM's can refluff things as they like, and that GMs can know that they can do it.
Finally, if you're going to refluff things to suit your own needs anyway, why does it matter that the original fluff is different that what you're going to change it to?
 

Remathilis

Legend
I like it! :)

It sounds a bit like we're going back to subclasses. A ranger isn't a fighter with survival skills, he's a member of an elite organization of hunters, guardians, and trackers. A sorcerer isn't a spell-point wizard, he's wrestling with his inner bloodline. A paladin isn't a cleric with a sword, he's a Knight of Quality! A druid isn't a nature priest, he's a servant of an ancient world-spanning religion. A monk trains in specific monastic traditions, a warlock seals his power with ancient entities, a bard belongs to an college of storytellers and lorekeepers, an assassin is a member of a secret society of killers who learned ancient arts of death and shadow.

In short, you can be a rogue who sings, a cleric of a nature god, or a fighter with a code of honor and call yourself whatever you like, but if you want to be a Bard, Druid, and Paladin, you have to be a member of a special group of people.
 

Yora

Legend
Well, I now listened to what they are actually saying, and what they say is that they approach classes with a concept first and then start to think for how this concept can be represented through mechanics.

Quote: "Where have this classes came from and how have they changed over the years? The ranger is a good example because in AD&D, when it first showed up, it was very Tolkien in its flavor. Rangers had a code of conduct they had to obey, they had to be good. And then from second and third edition the ranger kind of became the more generic nature warrior. They could be any alignment, they were more the goof archer, good skirmisher type of guys, the fighter in light armor. And that might be something where we tend to flavor it back a bit and say the gnoll archer can be just an expert fighter who has taken the right options. But the ranger now is going to mean something in the world. It's going to be more than a guy with a bow or a guy with two weapons, getting back to that stuff, of you know, I mean about that code of conduct, it's an actual, it's some organization of some sort, some sort you know... things like that bringing a little more flavor to the classes in either tweaking them back to where they were, or in some cases like the warlock or sorcerer, adding some sort of detail and depth there, to really give them a place in the world. The idea being that if you see something like a paladin or ranger in a novel, in a video game, or in an RPG, you have some sense of what that person is. You know, it means more than just the mechanics. And that's really where I think the payoff of the stuff to the story elements of the game, is 'paladins are not just fighters with an alignment restriction and they can lay on hands', there is something more about there."

You don't have to studied speech patterns (like I actually did) to see that at the point about giving the ranger a code of conduct he is just making up some examples on the spot. Those are not definite plans that already exist, but a vague idea they have in mind.
Though I have to praise him on his ability to speak smoothly, he polishes up all the small mistakes so quickly it's terrible difficult to hear them even when you are trying to transcribe them. ^^

And to the issue as a whole, I think he is expressing an overly bleak perception of classes in the last editions, which was not actually as bad as he makes it sound, what he is actually saying is not that special. It's exactly what makes people love Binders, bemoan that truenammers have terrible mechanics, and makes them want to play monks. It's not the mechanics people love, it's the ideas of the concept they love, even if the mechanics are terrible.
"A ranger is not just a light armor fighter with a bow or two weapons" is all he is saying and that's something nobody really would disagree with.
 

Greg K

Legend
While I sympathise with your opinion, I can't help but disagree with it. The background flavour is an important part of a class. It allows us to distinguish, say, a Fighter with an Archery path, the sniper specialisation, and some form of wilderness background from a Ranger.
As a GM, it is entirely up to you as to wether you work with the fluff they provide, or create your own. One of the constant things that has been stated throughout thus far is that the designers want to ensure that the GM's can refluff things as they like, and that GMs can know that they can do it.
Finally, if you're going to refluff things to suit your own needs anyway, why does it matter that the original fluff is different that what you're going to change it to?

It depends on how they go about it. With Dragon Heritage Sorcerers, they decided that they are gishes and built in additional training in armor and weapons and a +1 weapon attack bonus. Why do all Dragon Heritage Sorcerers have to be battle sorcerers? They have just removed player choice without giving an option for those that don't want their Dragon Sorcerer to be martial. they have also forced their fluff, mechanically, upon the DM.
To me, the dragon sorcerer heritage is poor game design. In my opinion, the only assumption should be that sorcerers gain innate spellcasting from their heritage. Martial training should be an available option that can be layered on top or not based upon character background (similar to the Unearthed Arcana Battle Sorcerer variant) which is a player choice or mandated by DMs for a particular setting. It should not be built in by the designers as part of their ingrained "story" except for a specific setting (and this should be saved for non-core books). I also consider forcing the manifestation to be poor design as well. I would have preferred something more along the lines of 3e heritage feat giving the player more choice in how much manifestation occurs.
 

CasvalRemDeikun

Adventurer
This is, exactly, what I don't want. I don't want the designers'
"story" except in specific setting products.
Exactly. I want to be able to engage MY players in MY world. That becomes quite hard when flavor is baked into classes. And here they were doing to well with getting me to want to get this game again (after the disaster that was Playtest #1 ).
 


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