PC Lairs

[Baileyborough]

Hey guys,

I was just flicking through the Adventurer's Vault 2 and lingering around the Wonderous Lair Items.
I love the items for the fluff factor and all that, but are they REALLY that useful?
How do you guys work PC home bases, and/or do you use these wondrous items to any effect in general?

Cheers,

Conor.

 

[Mentat55]

I think they'd go really well with the Strongholds article from Dragon 395.

In a PBP game I ran, the PCs defeated an eladrin traitor and were granted his tower in a Feywild city. As part of the tower, I had a few lair items in the traitor's personal treasure cache. Unfortunately the PCs never really used them, but I thought they were cool

 

[Riastlin]

I agree that the flavor of the lair items is pretty good (at least in some cases), but I also agree that unless you, as the DM, make the PC stronghold an important part of the campaign somehow, the players are unlikely to really care all that much about lair items. If you give them a stronghold and then forget about it for the rest of the campaign, then yeah, they are a bit of a waste. If you tie the stronghold to the campaign from time to time though, they become cool.

Even so though, its been my experience that most players would prefer an item that helps them out in combat or possibly even skill challenges over a lair item. Unfortunately, my players tend to particularly adhere to this line of thinking. When I awarded them a tower after they defeated its creator/inhabitant they asked "So how much would this disenchant for?" Given that line of thinking I'm willing to bet that if I were to throw some lair items their way, they'd simply disenchant them for the residuum.

(For the record I told them that although the tower had magical properties, it could not be disenchanted, primarily because I'm still holding out hope that they might use it).

/sigh

 

[Zaran]

I agree that the flavor of the lair items is pretty good (at least in some cases), but I also agree that unless you, as the DM, make the PC stronghold an important part of the campaign somehow, the players are unlikely to really care all that much about lair items. If you give them a stronghold and then forget about it for the rest of the campaign, then yeah, they are a bit of a waste. If you tie the stronghold to the campaign from time to time though, they become cool.

Even so though, its been my experience that most players would prefer an item that helps them out in combat or possibly even skill challenges over a lair item. Unfortunately, my players tend to particularly adhere to this line of thinking. When I awarded them a tower after they defeated its creator/inhabitant they asked "So how much would this disenchant for?" Given that line of thinking I'm willing to bet that if I were to throw some lair items their way, they'd simply disenchant them for the residuum.

(For the record I told them that although the tower had magical properties, it could not be disenchanted, primarily because I'm still holding out hope that they might use it).

/sigh

I've had simular experiences. Ive had players all pass on magic items because it didn't fit their grand plan of magic items. They rather sell it instead of use the item to get the gold for something they want in combat. This is because of the "wish list" idea that 4e has put into their heads. Essentials has tried to fix this with it's rarity system and putting magic items in the dm kit but the mentality is still there.

I basically told them that I do not let them shop at amazon.magi. That they do not know exactly what items out there are the best for their builds and that they should treat every item as something truly magical.

If I give them a lair item I would not have it use up a treasure parcel (at least not an item parcel). And if they try to sell it I will be really upset with them. I spend time picking out stuff to make the game interesting for not only them but for myself as well.

So that's my advice buried in those gripes: don't let the lair items you hand out replace something that the game requires for their characters and accenuate that stuff you give out isn't just a pile of residium.

 

[Riastlin]

[MENTION=56710]Zaran[/MENTION]: I agree with you in that lair items should not replace magic item parcel slots. As a general rule, they just are not likely to be as useful as a "typical" magic item.

I have also had the same issue with regard to magic items "not fitting in with the grand scheme". Ironically though, with my players, its not even an issue with the wish list system as my players have never really given me wish lists. The campaign where it came up most is the one wherein they were a couple of near-tpks and large portions of the party were remade. In fact, every player is on at least their second character in that campaign. Well, as it turned out, every character was made at 4th level or higher and they all had Deathcut Armor (owing to an odd coincidence of no heavy armor users in the group). Well, they all had Deathcut +1 but nobody wanted any armor that wasn't Deathcut. Of course, it takes quite a while to hand out 5 level 10 items to give everyone their +2 armor, etc. Same thing then started to happen with their weapons, it was the properties that they wanted, not the enhancements, etc.

It got to the point where I just started saying "You find a level 7 item" because every time they were like "Does anybody actually want this +2 item that 3 of us could actually use?" I think one way around this is to go with the inherent bonus system so that you don't need to keep handing out the magic weapliment/armor/neck slots. This also makes magic items more special as you don't need as many of them. I definitely think that my next campaign that I run will utilize inherent bonuses. This way, I can mostly concentrate on the more "minor" magic items and they will still seem special as opposed to "Shoot, I was really hoping for a magic hammer". Plus, you can still occasionally throw in a magic weapon and give it a cool story or history that really hooks the player into the item and makes them want to keep it.

With lairs though, that is always going to vary from player to player and group to group. Some will be really stoked by them while others could care less. Note that this doesn't mean either group is doing it wrong, just that they have different interests. Knowing your players' interests is the key here.

 

[BriarMonkey]

... Knowing your players' interests is the key here.

This.

Players run the gamut. Some think it'd be neat to run a tavern or inn, while others want to keep on moving. Thus, for those that want a base of operations, lair items, or items that focus outside of combat, will be of much more use than for those who are always on the go.

 

[Colmarr]

I think one way around this is to go with the inherent bonus system so that you don't need to keep handing out the magic weapliment/armor/neck slots. This also makes magic items more special as you don't need as many of them.

Educate me: Does the inherent bonuses system somehow reduce the total number of magic items in the treasure parcel system (or Essentials variant), or do you still hand out the same total but none of them need be Weapon/Armour/Neck?

 

[Horatio]

My players, hmm, acquired an airship and invested heavily into it, makeing it their mobile base. And one of them got the idea to improve it with some of the wondrous architecture items. And I like to say yes. Technically, it isn't actually a lair, but practically, they use it as one, albeit mobile.

So now they have a feather fall "window" in each of their cabins and when they arrive to their destination, instead of landing properly, they go into the action (or meeting, audience, public bath, etc.) paratrooper style.

Now that I call lots of fun

 

[Riastlin]

Educate me: Does the inherent bonuses system somehow reduce the total number of magic items in the treasure parcel system (or Essentials variant), or do you still hand out the same total but none of them need be Weapon/Armour/Neck?

Honestly, its been a while since I read through them since I'm not likely to start up another campaign anytime soon. That being said though, it is designed to be run with low magic campaigns, which would support the idea of reducing the number of parcels. If you think about it, a party of 5 will receive 20 magic items over the first 5 levels (and every 5 levels thereafter). Of those 20 items, typically 15 or so of those items should fall into the weapliment/armor/neck slots, but with inherent bonuses the need for the "big three" goes down since the main issue (enhancement bonus) is taken care of.

That being said, I certainly think you could still run with a standard parcel system just make it so that the enhancement bonuses don't stack with the inherent bonuses. This means the players can still use the properties and powers on the Big 3, just not the +X. Essentially, either way works. You don't have to hand out the Big Three, meaning you can hand out fewer items overall, or you can hand out the Big Three and keep the same number of parcels.

I would though perhaps caution against keeping the same number of parcels, but eliminating the Big Three entirely. The problem here is that your players will no doubt end up with more wondrous items and the like than is normally anticipated which may or may not lead to some screwy results.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Educate me: Does the inherent bonuses system somehow reduce the total number of magic items in the treasure parcel system (or Essentials variant), or do you still hand out the same total but none of them need be Weapon/Armour/Neck?

While it's recommended that treasure is reduced in the inherent bonus system, it's not at all necessary to do so: all it does is provide a minimum enhancement bonus that's handed out to each character. If you run at full magic items and hand out party appropriate stuff, the only differences you will notice are:

1. People with crappy gear won't be hurt too much by it.
2. People won't spend money using the enchant item ritual to bump the plusses on items with good properties, because it's effectively done for free.
3. People won't pick up items with crappy properties unless they have a bonus that is a tier ahead of them: ie - a level 11 melee rogue will be unlikely to pick a +3 phasing dagger over anything he currently owns. However if he sees a +4 phasing dagger, he might reconsider.

Basically it eliminates choosing between crappy and less crappy treasure. So as DM you need to provide choices between good and better treasure. Which, lets face it, are the fun choices.

Raistlin and Zaran: your problems aren't with player entitlement, they're with the fact that much of the magic item list is pretty crappy, full of situational daily abilities and properties that make little to no difference even in the narrow scenarios where they might be of use. Littered across this landscape of blah are the occasional standouts that everyone wants.

The inherent bonus system is great for making magic more special, because it stops players from expecting that they'll get a new magic item for a slot every N levels. You can't really call that entitlement - the game specifically says to do it.

That said if you go around handing out sunleaf armor to a party who's seen deathcut, no one is going to be impressed unless you pair it with a lot of radiant-inflicting encounters and undead with threatening reach who don't deal necrotic or poison damage.