PC Problem

[FireLance]

Frankly, I think you'd be better off addressing the fundamental issue right away: namely, whether the game he wants to play is the same as the game the rest of you want to play. I'm not sure that he even realizes that you see what he wants to do as a problem in the first place. Then, when an NPC is not persuaded despite a high Bluff or Diplomacy check, he will see you as being "unfair" because you're denying him the outcome that he "rightfully" earned. This is related to my earlier point about communicating early when persuasion isn't going to work. It's a good principle to apply in real life as well as when DMing a game.

 

[Aran Thule]

I think it is better to get this resolved now and explain the ground rules.

It sounds like your friend is spoiling the spirit of the game and trying to take the limelight for themselves.
As for bluffing and controlling PC's, i would stop that asap as this could really annoy the other players.
Diplomacy and bluff are not the same as suggestion, it is not mind control and should not be treated as such.
Also take into account that the party has to work together based on trust, by trying to control the others they are breaking this trust.
Someone might be good at lying but once you know this you will not take things on face value, if they are found to be manipulating other party members they might be given another chance but if they break the trust again i would say the party is within their rights to tell him to leave.
If they resort to using magic (charms, suggestions ect) against the party then put your foot down as it may well cause conflict and spoil the fun for everyone.

 

[malkav666]

All these folks hes bluffing and lying to..they may do what he wants for a scene, but they don't stay duped forever. They may even come and seek vengeance, or spread the news around about that lying bastard bard.

Even better yet, they may send assassins int he night, then there would be one less lying bard about. Fore very action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

He may tell the innkeeper he is his long lost brother. The innkeeper may fall for it and give him free room and board, maybe even make a scene about it in front of his other guests. But what happens next festival day when he talks to his dear old mum about it and finds out he has been lied to and made a fool of?

Even the simplest of bluffs can be figured out given a few minutes to think about it, or time to double check the information. The only reason bluff works is because the person using it provides a story that cannot be immediately refuted. But given enough time and without further injections of BS from the bard they will be refuted, and NPCs will be pissed, and some will what revenged depending on what they were bluffed out of or into doing.

You want to make that character suffer?

Then try and drive the story into a single region or even a better a single city. As he bluffs his way around make it more and more known to the populace. Have them come out ion mobs and try and lynch the bard, have wanted posters go up, have assassins come in the night.

And as far as controlling the other players with his social skills? Tell him to F off. You don't have to let that occur at your table, I know I wouldn't.

But before you take any action take a good look at the game and make sure you are actually putting in some NPCs to be bluffed, and setting up situations where can use his character and feel like he contributed.

love,

malkav

 

[Janx]

generally, none of the social skills have ever allowed a PC to control another PC. That takes magic. It also annoys fellow players, as has been pointed out.

Read Rich Burlew's article on Diplomacy. There are design flaws with it in 3.x:
Giant In the Playground Games

Keep a house rules document. keep it short. Cover basics of Players working together, for the sake of having fun.

Throw in a ruling on use of Social skills to fix the problem.

Then get back to having fun.

 

[pawsplay]

The problem with letting Diplomacy accomplish specific tasks is that if you set a DC for trading a castle for a piece of dirty string, someone will beat it.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, first of all, you can't Diplomacy other PCs into doing what you say. Ever. The rules are very specific on that point.

As regards Bluff, the way I generally run that is that if you beat the other guy's Insight (Sense Motive in 3E), the other guy thinks you seem sincere. That does not preclude the other guy from thinking, "Hmm, well, you've lied to me repeatedly in the past and you seemed sincere then, too. I just can't tell with you, man." The other PCs would be well within their rights to act dubious about anything he tells them.

More to the point, this guy's behavior is extremely obnoxious and destructive, and it needs to be settled with an out-of-game discussion. Explain that the game is not a competition between him and the other players and you're not going to allow him to spoil everyone else's fun.

Where NPCs are concerned, just tell him you're going to apply some common sense limitations on what he can accomplish. It's fine for him to be a first-rate smooth talker who can bluff his way past suspicious guards and talk his way out of nasty situations, but that doesn't mean he can talk absolutely anyone into absolutely anything. As another poster said upthread, changing the dragon's attitude to Friendly just means it gives you a friendly warning that if you try to take its stuff, it'll eat you.

 

[Oryan77]

Frankly, I think you'd be better off addressing the fundamental issue right away

I think it is better to get this resolved now and explain the ground rules.

Yes, take their advice. Believe me, you don't want to "let someone do it for now" and then deal with it later. If you are already bothered by something a PC plans to do and you don't want him to do it, you need to stop it from happening before the player gets comfortable doing it. It will only bother you more later on. If you don't deal with it now, both him and you will end up ruining your campaign sooner or later. Trust me on this, I'm speaking from experience

Talk to him about this immediately before he thinks he's entitled to playing his PC like this. He'll probably whine and throw a tantrum, but the good thing is that he hasn't played yet. So if he wants to play D&D with you guys, it will be easier for him to suck it up and make a less problem PC than it would for him to nerf an existing PC and continue playing.

 

[Marius Delphus]

IMC, a PC's social skills can never be used "against" other PCs. Ever. I mean sure, you can roll it, but it's up to the (target) player to believe, trust, or do what the persuasive PC says... or not. Sense Motive, opposed Diplomacy, or whatever... not required.

With NPCs, consider that skills are less powerful than spells. If a player is expecting charm person style power from skill use, he should be disappointed. If a player is expecting dominate person, he should be upbraided (IMHO) and then disappointed.

[ruleslawyer]
Bluff specifically says it isn't (read: can't reproduce the effects of) even a suggestion spell.* The PHB fluff text for Bluff explains what a "bluff" is: it it quite clearly not a command that the target must follow. The rules text supports this reading: "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe." (Emphasis added.) The target is not made to act as the player wishes; the target merely reacts as if the bluff is the truth... usually for 1 round and possibly even less. And remember the +20 modifier to the DC for bluffs that are "almost" too incredible to consider. (A bluff that is too incredible to consider automatically fails IMC.)

* An epic-level character can instill a short-duration suggestion [in an NPC!], but there's a +50 modifier to the Sense Motive roll made to oppose this/set the DC. [EDIT] Note also the suggestion can be detected using Sense Motive. [/EDIT]

Diplomacy specifically says that it can change only attitudes. Attitudes do not force specific behaviors. Even a Helpful NPC won't necessarily take lethal risks, for example.* Don't forget the –10 check modifier for "rush" diplomacy (anything less than 1 full minute; the rushed check is a full-round action). Also don't forget "retries usually do not work."

* An epic-level character can change [an NPC's!] attitude to Fanatic, but the DCs for this are 3 times the DCs for changing to Helpful (changing Helpful to Fanatic is a DC of 50). [EDIT] The Fanatic attitude lasts (1+CHA bonus) days, can be detected with Sense Motive, and can be suppressed or countered (but not dispelled) as though it were a mind-affecting magical effect. [/EDIT]
[/ruleslawyer]

 

[~EE~]

I thank all of you for your help. I'm going to attempt to talk to him about this problem and see if I cannot fix it. I do have another question if I may. Is anyone familiar with the Eberron Campaign Guide? The one I have is 4e and I'm attempting to make it my world and such. I have a few questions about the world it creates. I'd rather not talk about it here, in fear of one of my PCs finding out the plot. (They wouldn't do this on purpose, it would just seem bad if they did)

 

[MarkB]

Don't try and resolve this problem by tweaking or over-applying the game mechanics. With someone like this, you'll send the wrong message - instead of thinking they're wrong to use these tactics, they'll take it as approval for using them if they can get away with it, and just come back with an even more powerful and specialised character build, to plough through whatever roadblocks you've put up.

Resolve it out of game by talking to them, and make them understand that while some of what they're doing is possible under the game rules, that doesn't make it acceptable.