PC spinning out of control

[Baramay]

I'm a selfish cowardly wizard player, so I have to ask you, how is this not helping the group? Instead of throwing meatshields in front of him, the wizard spends exactly one round protecting himself. (Overland flight lasts long enough that he doesn't cast it in combat.) If invisibility were balanced (I think it isn't, though), how is this different from a wizard spending one round casting mirror image?

I think there's more to the story than you're telling us. Does he not cast spells every round? Is he casting more than one defense spell? Is he saving up spells for later on - because that's a different issue than being cowardly.

That one round is quite critical. There is much that can be done to turn the tide of battle. Imaging the difference in a fight if everyone in your group wins initiative opposed to everyone losing initiative. Often mages are the best at taking out the BBEG with their spells. To add yes,there is more, the wizard is very aggressive about getting into fights. I would say that mirror image is a much better spell because then the caster is taking attacks away from the enemy ganging up on the fighter. Of course, with mirror image you always have to worry about the critical hit that hits you and not an image. Alignment factors also play a part. I don't think a good person should always be trying to protect his own hide first and surely not be selling off the magic items of deceased companions. If you are a coward in a peaceful settings that is fine. If lives are at stake then you may be offending thoses people risking their own lives.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

That one round is quite critical. There is much that can be done to turn the tide of battle.

While this is true, I don't really think I could begrudge any kind of character a single round of buffing, especially if it means the wizard is going to be able to keep spell-slinging throughout the other 7 rounds of the combat, rather than fleeing with low hit points a few rounds later. First rule of adventuring: geek the spellcaster.

Those guys have to stay alive if they're going to be helping the party at all.

 

[Li Shenron]

Sounds to me like the player is being a jerk. The problem with using tactics against jerks is that they tend to feel put upon and say things like "Why are you picking on me?!"

That's because if you start using tactics just to screw his own tactic, you ARE picking on him.

The key is to get the player to stop being a jerk. Try to remind the player somehow that the point of the game is for EVERYbody to have fun and he is directly getting in the way of that. The problem there is that those things are delicate case by case proceedures.

This is what I don't fully understand. I've played with a couple of bad players who were not contributing well to the fights (but I have to say, it's them who usually risked getting killed, not the others) and often actually ended up involuntarily being an obstacle to the others' tactics. But I was playing my PC well enough and I was having a lot of fun... it wouldn't spoil my fun to have a character who does nothing but defend itself. Clearly, I'd prefer all the characters to be important, otherwise it's like reading a novel or watchin a movie where there's a character in every scene but doesn't do much, which is surely a sort of waste.

IMO the group is irritated because they can't prevent their characters from dying, either because the encounters are too strong on the average or because they are not playing well enough. So they are getting frustrated and decide to blame it on the guy who's never died... From the description it seems that the Wizard is definitely contributing to the fights! If he's defending himself "too much", why don't the others do the same? Are the front line fighters rushing into melee, or are they for instance trying to work in formation, using defensive feats or actions, and of course ask for support spells?

The equipment thing is indeed bad instead, especially if the Wizard gets to keep more in the process, but I already suggested that the DM is making a mistake in stacking old- and new- PCs stuff.

If he happens to gripe that "I'm just playing my character's personality" then he should have no problem when the next player to roll up a rogue decides to coup de grace his sleeping body with a sneak attack/wyvern venomed arrowand blame it on some goblin that ran off.

Absolutely, the personality would be just a lame excuse, no question about that.

We had a player who everybody hated once. Disruptive arrogant overly tactical jerk. His character "fell down a mine shaft." Onto some arrows. And swords. And magic missle spells. Wouldn't take a hint... had to take a beating.

Mah, sounds to me that the others were more jerk than him at the end, sorry.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That one round is quite critical. There is much that can be done to turn the tide of battle. Imaging the difference in a fight if everyone in your group wins initiative opposed to everyone losing initiative. Often mages are the best at taking out the BBEG with their spells.

I expect the mage player to be smart as well. Casting a defensive spell is a good idea, because the BBEG might survive that first spell chucked at him.

To add yes,there is more, the wizard is very aggressive about getting into fights. I would say that mirror image is a much better spell because then the caster is taking attacks away from the enemy ganging up on the fighter.

I would expect the enemy to come after me regardless of which attack or defense spell I cast. Seriously - mages have d4 hp per level and crappy Grapple checks. If the mage isn't bothering to protect himself, he will die. Deservedly so.

(Of course, one of the things that makes invisibility broken is that you must use a specific tactic to see through it, which not everyone is likely to have.)

Of course, with mirror image you always have to worry about the critical hit that hits you and not an image.

Heh heh. Yeah, that sucks. Mirror image is, IMO, the single best-designed defense spell for mages. It's powerful, and even protects you from targeted spells, but you don't need magic to go through it. (I would say the same thing about stoneskin, except eventually -10 damage doesn't mean much.)

Alignment factors also play a part. I don't think a good person should always be trying to protect his own hide first

I disagree. d4 hp/level, etc. It's not the wizard's fault that Wizards put such a class into print.

and surely not be selling off the magic items of deceased companions.

I think this is less of an alignment factor and more of a "bad player" factor. A dead person can't use his magic items. But it should be obvious to that player that taking those items is hurting the game.

 

[Stone Dog]

Mah, sounds to me that the others were more jerk than him at the end, sorry.

Nah, the guy was disruptive, selfish egotistical and unrepentantly abusive of the rules. He directly cause the deaths of other characters TWICE. When told "Sorry, man.. this really isn't going to work out" and asked to leave he said something like "I'm not going to leave till my character dies fair and square. No DM fiat!" The other players rolled initiative and pounded him.

Have to go to work now though... more later.

 

[Arcadio]

What kind of character wants to come back missing a level?

I hope the newly created character doesn't start at a higher level than the raised character would be at.

 

[Chimera]

What kind of character wants to come back missing a level?

What kind of real person would give up on Life because of a meta-concept like Level?

 

[Baramay]

I expect the mage player to be smart as well. Casting a defensive spell is a good idea, because the BBEG might survive that first spell chucked at him.


I would expect the enemy to come after me regardless of which attack or defense spell I cast. Seriously - mages have d4 hp per level and crappy Grapple checks. If the mage isn't bothering to protect himself, he will die. Deservedly so.



(Of course, one of the things that makes invisibility broken is that you must use a specific tactic to see through it, which not everyone is likely to have.)



Heh heh. Yeah, that sucks. Mirror image is, IMO, the single best-designed defense spell for mages. It's powerful, and even protects you from targeted spells, but you don't need magic to go through it. (I would say the same thing about stoneskin, except eventually -10 damage doesn't mean much.)



I disagree. d4 hp/level, etc. It's not the wizard's fault that Wizards put such a class into print.



I think this is less of an alignment factor and more of a "bad player" factor. A dead person can't use his magic items. But it should be obvious to that player that taking those items is hurting the game.

He already has a defensive spell cast, overland flight. That will protect him from quite a few attacks and he can be out of melee reach.

The point is this character is; aggressive to get into fights, protects his own butt, while others are dying. Where do you get the idea that others should not have the right to say something to the guy? How many popular cowards do you believe exist in combat situations?

 

[sydbar]

If a guy joins a group, and half end up dead, but he has their items, but not their bodies, once it could happen, but if it keeps happening then either he is working to kill adventurers for their items, or he's a coward, or he's a master of bringing fubar to a group. Either way i wouldn't go adventuring with him, my life is worth too much to suffer a fool, unless i'm playing a suicidal, or extremely stupid, or insane character, which i have played before.

 

[kinem]

You could rule that if he hangs back around a corner and invisible, he's not really joining the fight and isn't challenged. He won't learn anything he couldn't learn just by casting spells in an empty room. In other words, he doesn't get experience points for doing it.