PCs lack of respect for the 'caste' system of your typical fantasy society

[hong]

The idea of heroically exposing yourself to harm by making your command tent visible

I'll assume that's an attempt at humour.

 

[S'mon]

That sounds like DM fiat more than anything. And it won't work in 3E; fly has a 90' speed, and horses move at 50'-60'.

Incorrect - it specifically says that you can't Run with a Fly spell, whereas horses can Run and their riders still fire, at -8.
And there was no DM fiat involved, I just applied the rules and some real-world knowledge of Mongol battle tactics. You're starting to sound like one of those munchkin players who think 20th-level PCs have a god-given license to kill anything.

 

[S'mon]

A commander still needs a means of communicating his existence and his orders to his army. This means banners, guards, heralds, and all the other accoutrements of command; if the soldiers can figure out who he is, so can anyone else. At the very least, a commander can be expected to have better armour and weapons than everyone else -- a medieval commander exerts control over his troops by personal charisma as much as rank, and physical displays of class and rank are a part of that. Even if he doesn't, the PCs can just go invisible and wait for him to show himself.
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All this simply isn't true as a universalistion, I've read enough books on the history of warfare to know that the highly-visible Julius Caesar or Alexander-type leader in his red cloak is more the exception than the rule. Genghis Khan never led any frontal charges! The Mongols coordinated through a flag system that did not require the leader to be personally identified. And if they were anywhere near the battllefront they wore anonymous armour so they wouldn't get marked out. Even among European medieval kings, this was a common tactic, as was dressing several other men up as 'the king' to take the brunt of the enemy attacks. In a fantasy world such tactics would be even more common.

No leader will surround himself with a highly visible personal guard if they're more a liability than an asset.

 

[S'mon]

I'll assume that's an attempt at humour.

No - historically, most leaders would tend to stay anonymous if they were anywhere near the danger zone. In a fantasy world the danger zone includes the rear echelon, hence they will not be in big ostentatious tents unless their forces have air supremacy.

The US couldn't just fly in and blow up Saddam Hussein, because they couldn't find him. He drove around Baghdad not in an ostentious presidential car but in a regular taxi. Your fantasy world leaders either do the same, or get dead real fast. The exceptions are heroic leaders like Alexander - in D&D terms, _very_ high level NPCs.

 

[hong]

Incorrect - it specifically says that you can't Run with a Fly spell, whereas horses can Run and their riders still fire, at -8.

Together with the PCs' high AC, this would mean that the riders could hit only on a natural 20. With 200 riders, even if they all somehow managed to concentrate their fire on one target (a highly unlikely event IMO), that's maybe 10 hits per round; less if they have displacement or blur. A 20th level character with protection from arrows (DR 20/+5) could shrug even that off. And if they are getting shot up, they quaff their potion of invisibility, or activate their ring of the same, and simply observe (assuming they don't have improved invis on already). Eventually, the leader will become obvious. Then they kill him.

And there was no DM fiat involved, I just applied the rules and some real-world knowledge of Mongol battle tactics. You're starting to sound like one of those munchkin players who think 20th-level PCs have a god-given license to kill anything.

No, I'm someone who finds it highly implausible that a bunch of 1st level warriors, even with good tactics, could be anything other than a momentary speedbump for a prepared and intelligently-played 20th level party.

 

[hong]

All this simply isn't true as a universalistion, I've read enough books on the history of warfare to know that the highly-visible Julius Caesar or Alexander-type leader in his red cloak is more the exception than the rule.

We're talking about someone in charge of one company, not Julius Caesar or Alexander. And even if no-one is being ostentatious, observation will eventually reveal who's giving the orders. This will be even quicker if the observation takes place from the air, while invisible.

Genghis Khan never led any frontal charges! The Mongols coordinated through a flag system that did not require the leader to be personally identified.

Then you take out the flags, and the people carrying the flags, and the people who tell other people to pick up the flags. And you summon monsters to help you do it, and keep the mooks busy. And throw in an earthquake or a horrid wilting or two while you're at it.

 

[S'mon]

Re the specific example - I was using 2e rules, the riders had Riding NWP, 2 shots/round, hit on a 20, and they always criticalled for x2 damage (7hp average on 2d6) on a 20. 10 hits/round for an average of about 70 damage to the target. Of course the specifics would be different in 3e, the different crit rules and lower fire rate to spellcasting could quarter the damage.

No, I'm someone who finds it highly implausible that a bunch of 1st level warriors, even with good tactics, could be anything other than a momentary speedbump for a prepared and intelligently-played 20th level party.

You definitely sound like someone who as a player needs taking down a peg or two, or as a GM needs to think a lot more laterally. Certainly 3e 20th-level PCs are more powerful than 1e/2e, and arguably 1st-level NPCs are weaker since criticals are less likely and bow fire rates are generally less. I don't think the principle has changed.

 

[S'mon]

Re taking out leaders - in this case the tactics were standard ones, pre-prepared (like almost all successful battlefield tactics) and required minimal leadership. Mongol tactics do not depend on charismatic leadership, anyway - killing the leader would not rout them, only killing a large number of the force would do that. Even then they're more likely to scatter in good order and come together to regroup later, after dark.

Then you take out the flags, and the people carrying the flags, and the people who tell other people to pick up the flags. And you summon monsters to help you do it, and keep the mooks busy. And throw in an earthquake or a horrid wilting or two while you're at it.

All that obviously takes a lot of time. And horse archer armies don't stand still while you do it.

 

[hong]

Re the specific example - I was using 2e rules, the riders had Riding NWP, 2 shots/round, hit on a 20, and they always criticalled for x2 damage (7hp average on 2d6) on a 20. 10 hits/round for an average of about 70 damage to the target. Of course the specifics would be different in 3e, the different crit rules and lower fire rate to spellcasting could quarter the damage.

And as I was saying myself, your example wouldn't work in 3E. In fact, I don't think your example would even work in 2E against a wizard; 2E wizards were possibly even more powerful than their 3E counterparts, relatively speaking....

You definitely sound like someone who as a player needs taking down a peg or two

You have a remarkably thin skin for a DM.

or as a GM needs to think a lot more laterally.

I came up with ways to outwit your example, and therefore _I_ need to think laterally?

Certainly 3e 20th-level PCs are more powerful than 1e/2e, and arguably 1st-level NPCs are weaker since criticals are less likely and bow fire rates are generally less. I don't think the principle has changed.

3E evens out the power relationship somewhat between the different classes; thus a 20th level wizard is no longer quite as godlike and a rogue isn't quite as useless as before. However, if anything, it's made the gap between low- and high-level even wider than it was before (with the aforementioned exception of wizards). A 20th level fighter in 2E has 9d10 + 9xCon bonus + 33 hp IIRC; the same fighter in 3E would have 20d10 + 20xCon bonus, and the Con bonus would be bigger than it was before. The 3E fighter would also have more iterative attacks, unless you used the mastery rules in the PO splatbooks (and they only applied for one specific weapon) and do more damage per hit. There are other differences, but those are the ones that spring to mind.

 

[hong]

Re taking out leaders - in this case the tactics were standard ones, pre-prepared (like almost all successful battlefield tactics) and required minimal leadership. Mongol tactics do not depend on charismatic leadership, anyway - killing the leader would not rout them, only killing a large number of the force would do that. Even then they're more likely to scatter in good order and come together to regroup later, after dark.

Fine, so they run away. I thought the point of this sort of encounter was to make the 20th level PCs run away?

All that obviously takes a lot of time. And horse archer armies don't stand still while you do it.

20th level characters can usually afford to take their time.