PDF Piracy

[GBDeluxe]

Ok, since I enjoy a good debate, I was thinking this might be fun. I'll take the devil's advocate road and go "Pro-Piracy" and see what response I get.

Why would piracy "not be bad"?

Arguements:

#1.) (weakest arguement) I would not have bought this product anyway. I just didn't feel it was worth my money. (But I'll take a free copy.) Unlike shrinkage in a store, the "cost" of the product is not "lost" by the seller / company (since it is just an electronic copy.) Since I would not have bought it, and the seller is not losing anything (in an technical sense) - how could it be bad?

#2.) I already own this product in print format. If I own a CD or movie or software, generally I am allowed a "back up" copy of the material. Is downloading a PDF of a book you own "bad?" if so, Why?

#3.) The PDF is of a book that is out of print and no longer available. No one is selling it (even if the company still owns the rights to the IP / content - they aren't selling it, so they aren't losing anything.) The only way to obtain the book is the secondary market (ie - ebay). Is anyone being "hurt" by this?

I'm interesting in both pro and con arguments. support these theories or attack them

GBDeluxe

P.S. I'm not advocating for anyone to go out and "steal". I'm just trying to see people's points of view.

 

[RangerWickett]

From time to time I log on to KaZaA and download copies of Wild Spellcraft. Then I send messages to the people who had the copy telling them that the author is a little miffed that they're messing with his profit margin.

At least in the field of pdf-only products, you'd have to be cheaper than I am to refuse to buy them. I mean, c'mon, 5 bucks for a 60 to 90 page book? Good stuff! If you're interested, just shell out the 5 bucks. The risk is probably far less than spending $10 to go see a movie that might be really bad.

Now, I do think that pdf publishers should start posting previews of their products, giving out a few sample pages to show people what they can expect. Then people can just download the sample, instead of pirating the whole thing.

 

[Drawmack]

First I'd like to make a couple of statements about pirate PDFs. The quality is usually very low with crooked, blurred and even missing pages. If you print them out you have probably just spent abotu 3/4 what the book would have cost in ink, paper and a binder to keep it in. Now onto the arguements

1) If you would not have bought the book that means that the suff inside is not important to, and probably will not be used in your campaign. If you are not going to use the material then why do you need a copy of it. You're probably taking the free copy so that you can redistribute it and if you redistribute it then you are taking money from the publisher. Besides all of this it is illegal.

2) If you own the book in print format you are allowed to scan it in, as long as that scan is stored on medium where it is inaccessible to others. If, as you claim, you are doing this for a backup then you are just being lazy. If you really want a backup scan it yourself or deal with not having one. You didn't worry about backing up your role-playing books before the advent of scanners did you? Besides all that, it's illegal.

3) So then go to the secondary market and purchase the book. If you take the time to contact the publishers, and if the rights have reverted back, the authors you can probably score a new copy from one of them. On top of that there are many resources on the web devoted to second hand role-playing games where you can probably score a copy in good condition at a reasonable price. I recommend http://www.titangames.com. Besides all that it's illegal.

On another note the only argument that I have heard which I believe has any creedance is the book not being distributed in the country that the person resides in and they cannot order it on-lie (i.e. wizard's ESDs). In this case I say trade with someone. I have a copy of the PHB if three languages because I purchased, burned to CD and shipped out some ESDs and the other person shipped me the PHB. (NOTE: I deleted my originals of the ESDs so as far as any liability on my part there is only one copy of the ESD) So even this doesn't hold much water as you can get them by trading. The worst argument I believe I've heard is if I order them on-line the shipping would be astronimical and they are not selling it in my country. BooHoo, deal with it and quit breaking the law.

 

[Xeriar]

2) If you own the book in print format you are allowed to scan it in, as long as that scan is stored on medium where it is inaccessible to others.

Copyright law makes exceptions for educational and personal (between immediate family and normal circle of friends) use.

If, as you claim, you are doing this for a backup then you are just being lazy.

I think this sentance is just being inflammatory.

If you really want a backup scan it yourself or deal with not having one.

Not everyone has a scanner, not everyone knows how, not everyone has access. In Minnesota, I could always just go down to one of a dozen local libraries. That isn't possible in most places in the United States, to say nothing of the rest of the world.

You didn't worry about backing up your role-playing books before the advent of scanners did you?

Yes I did, and I'm terribly sorry that I didn't. I lost one page of my 2nd Ed. OD&D books. I should probably hunt it down and print it out anyway, you've just inspired me to.

Besides all that, it's illegal.

No ruling has yet been made for this, that I know of. If it were to come to court, they would likely cite the early 1980's Supreme Court decision that made this legal for video and audio recordings.

3) So then go to the secondary market and purchase the book.

This is not always possible.

If you take the time to contact the publishers, and if the rights have reverted back, the authors you can probably score a new copy from one of them.

Many of the little ones are out of business, many of the big ones don't want to deal with little nothings like you. If you actually get a response, it will usually be 'no'.

A friend of mine tried to get 'The Pirates of Dark Waters' this way, but dealing with the hassle wasn't worth it to anyone involved.

On top of that there are many resources on the web devoted to second hand role-playing games where you can probably score a copy in good condition at a reasonable price.

Not everything is available. For example, the site you quote is missing the last two Clan War journals. It took me forever to find #3, and few people have the kind of searching skills necessary to find many of these things, or those sites.

Besides all that it's illegal.

At the moment. The drastic extensions to copyright law are being challenged, however, the Supreme Court is expected to rule on this in July.

Beyond that, it typically falls under the perview of 'it is better to as forgiveness than permission', simply because if you really do need something, the ramifications are usually better if you don't ask first.

I have a copy of the PHB if three languages because I purchased, burned to CD and shipped out some ESDs and the other person shipped me the PHB. (NOTE: I deleted my originals of the ESDs so as far as any liability on my part there is only one copy of the ESD)

This, actually, is illegal by default, becuase of different laws written to apply to electronic media. Unless Wizard's specifically grants permission to do this in their licensing, you did break the law doing that. It does not matter if you claim to have deleted the originals - heck, they still exist after you 'delete' them anyway, even from the recycling bin / trash can.

If you are going to harp about people breaking bad parts of laws, don't break the law yourself.

 

[Mercule]

Drawmack, whether something's illegal or not doesn't make a hill of beans difference. Laws are in place to give a mechanism for morality. If a law doesn't have the weight of morality behind it, then it's just a threat by a fairly potent bully (the gov't).

Yes, I cop to being whole-heartedly Chaotic. Not trying to sway you or start an arguement, just putting things in perspective. Telling me something is illegal (especially if I think I can get away with it) is about as relevant as telling an atheist they're going to burn in Hell.

1) I agree with Drawmack here. If it's of value, buy it. If not, then don't use it. The author didn't offer to give it away. People devote their time to this stuff and deserve to be rewarded for their effort (in a capitalistic, market-driven sort of way). Theft is theft.

2) Hmm... I don't use a computer at the game table (tried it, works for crud), so my view is a bit skewed. Never-the-less, this is akin to someone who buys one book for their shelf and one to carry around. They _could_ have made a photocopy, but they wanted the nice package on the portable copy, so they paid for it. Same w/ the PDF. You could do it yourself, but if you want the time-savings and professional quality, pay the publisher/author for the service provided.

3) I can't say this is an absolute, but having the original material really adds some validity to your rights to use it. On the other hand, if you can't find it with reasonable effort, then I wouldn't have the smallest twinge of guilt about having a PDF.

4) One place I don't have an issue with copping a PDF is legitimate previewing. You shouldn't have to buy something sight unseen. Of course, the corrolary to this is that if you opt to not purchase it, delete the "freebie". Also, don't make a whole bunch of crib notes to use as idea seeds w/o buying the product. Fertilizer is a perfectly legitimate use of a published work.

To expand on #3 a bit, AFAIK, intellectual property (IP) laws were originally set up (at least in the US) with the idea that they would give authors, inventors, etc. just enough room for profit and incentive to create things that could be added to the public domain to spark further creativity.

IIRC, the original timeframe was 7 years (definitely not going to swear to that). I'm not sure if I agree with that in all circumstances, but about the only thing I'd personally be inclined to remove from that timeframe is works of fiction (because of their more intimate connection to the creator I might say 20 years). So, I'd be all good with all the ODD, 1E, and 2E rules all being part of the public domain, 3E a little less than halfway through it's run, and FR being still Ed's/WotC's baby for a few more years and Greyhawk as public domain.

Keep in mind that I'm only referring to the original publications and core rules of all the above. I certainly wouldn't lump the LGG as public domain, but could easily be pursuaded that White Wolf should be able to publish/update the orignal box.

Also, keep in mind that what _I_ think should be the law _isn't_ currently the law.

Finally, before anyone has an image of me with reams of photocopies/PDFs, I don't have hardly any. The only photocopy I can think of is one of the original rules for Chainmail (c. 1970). I never have seen an original and haven't even played for 10+ years. I've got it around mostly as a curiosity and I'd rather have the actual collector's item. Overall, I'm far too addicted to bright-shinies (i.e. well cared for, sharp-looking products) to ever be satisfied with a copy. I'll pay for packaging and convenience if nothing else. I also can't stand PDFs (since I hate computers at the game table), so don't own a single one.

Edit: Anal grammar: "far too addicted", not "far to addicted".

 

[Joshua Randall]

I used to be a software pirate. (This was back in the days of BBSs and 2400 baud modems.) Then, two things happened.

(1) I grew up. Stealing no longer seemed cool. It seemed wrong.
(2) I starting working for companies whose only asset is intellectual property (IP). People who steal that IP are stealing from me just as if they'd stolen my wallet.

Amazing what the wisdom of age, coupled with being on the other side of IP debate, can do for your attitude towards piracy.

I won't rehash a lot of tired arguments here. All I will say is this: when you steal IP, you may not think you're hurting anyone, but you are. You're hurting the normal, everyday Joes who just want to help produce a quality product and get paid for it. You're not hurting the rockstars at the top despite what you might like to think.

So don't do it. If you want something, pay for it. Taking it without paying for it is called stealing. And stealing is wrong.

 

[Darkness]

This is not an appropriate topic for EN World. It has lead to numerous flamewars in the past, it's about illegal activities (and someone will defend these activities) and it's also bordering on the political.

Please take this to Nutkinland - or elsewhere - instead.

Thanks.

Thread closed.

- Darkness